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Designing Women S3 E14 - The Hatfields & The McCoys - ATL Style

Updated: Jun 1, 2023

Boy meets girl. Boy falls in love. Boy…secretly hides that love for a decade? That’s what we learned happened to poor Odell, Charlene’s beloved brother when he rushes to Atlanta for help navigating a tough family feud. Charlene faces an even tougher decision - help her baby brother or honor her father.

Stick around for “Extra Sugar”, where Salina learns us up about famous Southern feuds.

Here are a couple of things we mentioned in the show:

Come on, let’s get into it!



Salina: Hey, Nikki.

Nikki: Hey, Salina.

Salina: And hello, everyone, and welcome to Sweet Tea and TV.

Salina: Hey, y'all.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Feel like to start today off, we need to talk about something really important.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: 100%.

Salina: You don't know what it is.

Nikki: What is it?

Salina: It's Buckies.

Salina: Oh, sure.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: That's important.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: And because I finally got my button.

Nikki: Gear and I went, oh, we haven't talked since then.

Salina: Well, we've talked on the show.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Even you and I only really talked about it in passing.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: Because actually, just so everyone knows, I tried to hide it from Nikki the first time I went because I got her a couple of birthday presents from there.

Salina: And I don't know why I didn't think I could separate the two conversations until I hit it, until it was, like, time for her birthday.

Nikki: And then I opened wait a minute.

Salina: None of it was Buckies.

Salina: Yeah, none of it was actually Bucky.

Salina: It was all like another brand that I found at Bucky.

Salina: The whole thing was I'm stupid?

Salina: That's what you need to know.

Nikki: Maybe you didn't think it through all the way.

Salina: That's probably the nicer way of putting it, but still.

Salina: So, yes, I've been twice now, and I guess I just wanted to say that for those who haven't been, I'm going to get on and plug it because you talked it up.

Salina: But still, it's almost like the way that you take a picture, and it can be a beautiful picture, but it's not the same as standing in front of that amazing thing, whatever it is.

Salina: And that's what Buckies was like for me.

Nikki: Well, you went twice in the matter of like a month, right?

Nikki: Three weeks, yeah.

Nikki: So it must have really landed hard with you.

Salina: So I've been to Adrisville now.

Salina: So the one here in Georgia which you tell me is not the biggest one, the biggest Georgia is in Warner Robbins.

Nikki: I think that's right.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: I don't have the square footage for sure, but I've been to both.

Salina: We'll give you a pass.

Nikki: And I can say that the Warner Robbins one felt bigger somehow, but that could be part and parcel to the fact that it was my first experience at Buckies.

Nikki: So that always everything's like nothing ever compares to your first Buckies, or so I've been told.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: So the other place that I went was Alabama.

Salina: I just went like it was last week, and I came there on the way back from Gulf Shores.

Nikki: Right, okay.

Salina: And we just happened upon it.

Salina: And I was like, oh, in case.

Nikki: He hadn't been we happened upon it, too, but it wasn't open yet when we happened upon it, so good for you.

Salina: Well, it was very similar to the one in Adriersville, even where it was positioned on the road.

Salina: If you had just dropped me there and blindfolded me and then took the blindfold off, I would have thought I was in a daresville.

Salina: I don't think I would have known.

Salina: Also, I realized as I say this not the best person to do that trick to.

Salina: So I stayed three and a half hours the first time I went does that blows your mind, doesn't it?

Nikki: Ridiculous.

Salina: It blows your mind.

Salina: My mom was like also she's really the one that was just like you have to go, you have to go.

Nikki: You have to go to Buckies.

Nikki: Not you have to leave Buckies.

Nikki: We've been here three and a half hours.

Salina: Well, that was at the end of the trip.

Nikki: Got it.

Salina: I don't think any because my mom is also like, I can stay in a place for a long time.

Salina: Like browsing.

Salina: I'm a big browser.

Nikki: Oh my God.

Salina: So I can do that and hang in there.

Salina: I need to see everything.

Salina: Well, okay, in all fairness, we drove 2 hours.

Nikki: That's true.

Salina: I need to spend some time there.

Nikki: It's true.

Salina: Because if I'm going to be in the car for 4 hours, wherever I'm going needs to be worth it.

Nikki: Fair enough.

Salina: But what I will say is it was worth it.

Salina: And I say that with a little tinge because if someone is driving for 2 hours, I do need you to know at the end you're going to a convenience store.

Nikki: Plus.

Salina: I think that's important for people.

Nikki: To realize I don't appreciate that categorization, you're going to the target of convenience stores.

Salina: I think that's a good comparison.

Salina: So can I tell you about some of my favorite things?

Nikki: Yes, please.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Well, the first thing I want to say is it truly is massive.

Salina: It's like almost like a sleeper from the outside.

Salina: You're like, okay, this is really big for a gas station.

Salina: But you don't know until you're standing on one side of that thing and looking directly across the other side of the thing.

Salina: It looks like you're looking down a football field.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: And it's just full of so many disparate.

Nikki: But all amazing things.

Nikki: Like there's not one section I walked in was like, this section is not for me.

Nikki: I still want to look at it all.

Nikki: It's so cool.

Nikki: I didn't buy all the hunting gear, but I like walking through the section.

Salina: Yeah, I think so.

Salina: Whether you're like a jams and jellies person, they have their own of all of that and the pickled okra kind of stuff and that kind of thing.

Salina: And then for me, the highlights were when I saw that icy section.

Nikki: Oh, yeah.

Salina: I am such a sucker for ices.

Salina: It's like one of my very favorite treats of all time.

Nikki: Oh, I didn't know that about you.

Salina: I love a coke icy that is up there and just the tippy top of treats.

Salina: So when I saw that wall of ices I was like, oh my goodness, I'm home.

Salina: I'm here now.

Salina: I also really love they had dipping dots.

Salina: That was super exciting for me.

Nikki: Oh, I think I might have missed that.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: But I'm not a big dipping dots person.

Salina: It's behind the fudge.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: So they have two of my very favorite frozen treats, and then they have a huge coffee section, and so I got some sort of cinnamon bun, sweet coffee situation, which is not really my go to, but it was a treat day, so I was like, I'm going to live it up.

Salina: Right.

Salina: It's my version of living it up.

Nikki: I know.

Salina: Yeah, I'm a sad person, but I really like the fact they're, like, on the honor system or something.

Salina: So I just walked around with my beverage and drink it and just pay for it at the end with all of my things in the cart.

Nikki: I think some people think most stores are like that.

Nikki: Have you ever seen people, like, walking around the grocery store eating snacks?

Salina: Yeah, I've desperately done that before when I've been really hungry.

Salina: It's not something I do a lot, but there's been like, two times where I'm like, I'm about to do some hunger shopping, and I better have this thing of mixed nuts before I buy out the entire store.

Salina: But that's a good point.

Salina: Maybe they're not on the system, and I'm just, like, walking around with like I see I paid for everything at the end.

Nikki: I think gas stations have to be that way.

Salina: What I'm trying to say is they didn't yell at me.

Salina: That was nice food.

Nikki: Southern hospitality.

Salina: I want to say the food was surprisingly good because I'd heard people talk about it, but it's fine.

Salina: But you have to try it for yourself.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: And what I want to say really stood out is, like, I had both the chopped and sliced brisket.

Nikki: I mean, you were there 3 hours.

Salina: Well, I also took several sandwiches home sure.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: And accidentally got the other kind.

Salina: That's how I got both kinds, because I wanted Casey to be able to try some stuff too.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: But what really stood out to me on my stepdad, David, he got the pulled pork sandwich, so I was able to try that.

Salina: My mom got the club, so I was able to try that.

Salina: What I want to say.

Salina: What was the standout in all of those?

Salina: Was the bread very fresh?

Nikki: Good.

Salina: Very delicious.

Nikki: Good.

Salina: I also tried the kolachis.

Nikki: Kolachis.

Salina: This is because it's Texas based, I want to say it's check.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: And it's kind of like a stuffing inside of a roll.

Salina: And there are, like, different kinds.

Salina: I had a pecan pie one, and I also had a sausage, cheese, and jalapeno one, and then I had a sausage on a stick and a tortilla.

Salina: I just am thinking about all this food I had now, and I'm a little embarrassed.

Salina: I think I tried every food there.

Nikki: Good for you.

Salina: Are you looking for the kolachi?

Nikki: I'm looking at that because this is not familiar to me at all.

Salina: And this is back in there.

Salina: Like where you go and pick up they have sandwiches and stuff it's all back.

Nikki: To be fair, I haven't spent a ton of time in that section or.

Salina: Three and a half hours, probably.

Nikki: Sure.

Nikki: Deli places, like walk up and order places really stress me out.

Nikki: I'm much better, like, ordering in advance.

Salina: My mom was there.

Salina: I went and got something else and she went and did the communicating.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Yes.

Salina: I am 37 years old and I still don't like to talk to people.

Nikki: She is overwhelming, especially in a place like I get very I love Buckies.

Salina: Well, then I'm like looking at something kolache and I'm like, oh, I don't.

Nikki: Know how I have no idea how to pronounce that.

Salina: This is my overwhelmed but this is my mom.

Salina: She grabs the first person she sees that works there and she's like, hey, honey, darlin shook a pie, honey bunch.

Salina: And she's like, what is this word up here?

Salina: Automatically.

Salina: Whereas I'd be over there googling it, trying to figure it out.

Nikki: Pronunciation guide.

Salina: No, not mom.

Salina: She's writing it and then she's like, okay, well, baby doll, what is that?

Nikki: And I'm going to need seven.

Salina: So she waits for me to start.

Salina: Then she catches them later on to tell because I was like, oh, this is good.

Salina: But it could use a sauce.

Salina: That's what I said.

Salina: She catches them later on.

Salina: She said, honey, we really liked it, but you know, these could really use a sauce.

Nikki: And they've seen 700 people between her and they're like, okay.

Salina: I guarantee you they remember my mom, though.

Salina: Guaranteed.

Salina: That's great.

Salina: We couldn't be more polar opposite when it comes to that.

Nikki: I think I want to be that person.

Nikki: In my head, I'm that person.

Salina: I'm not that person at all.

Nikki: I'm so full of questions and I'm so curious and I want to give feedback, but I am so trained that that's too much.

Salina: My mom has never met a stranger and I literally don't know the people's names next door.

Salina: The thing that I just try and remind myself is it takes all kinds.

Nikki: It takes all kinds.

Salina: You need a Sabrina and a Salina.

Salina: I'm still not sure what you need the latter for, but I'm absolutely sure I know what you need the former for.

Salina: You hear that, mom?

Salina: There's only one way to know if you're listening to hear these compliments.

Salina: The last thing I'll say about Buckies is that I want to say that when you said we had a conversation about their home goods section oh, yeah.

Salina: And I just didn't realize it was going to be as good as it was.

Salina: That is where I spent the bulk of my time.

Nikki: That makes sense.

Nikki: That's on brand for you.

Salina: I feel like I spent a lot because then I need to evaluate everything and I do a lot of like, should I have this?

Salina: I like, to put it in the buggy.

Salina: I like to walk around with the buggy a few times.

Salina: I like to think about it.

Salina: I like to put it back.

Salina: I like to put it back in the buggy.

Salina: So there's a lot of that.

Nikki: I get that.

Salina: But what I do want to say is for people who are considering, should I go to Buckies?

Salina: Should I not go to Buckies?

Salina: When we get to the home good place.

Salina: It is no longer a convenience store.

Salina: It is a magical slice of heaven.

Nikki: It is.

Nikki: They had some really good stuff.

Salina: Now, is there some things that are less quality?

Salina: Absolutely.

Salina: Are there things that are of good quality?

Salina: Absolutely.

Salina: So go take a look, guys.

Salina: That's what I'm trying to say.

Nikki: And if you want the original segment, I was looking it up while you were talking.

Nikki: It was this season, season three, episode three, where we talked about Buckies, our road trip episode.

Nikki: So if you need the original segment to know what Salina is talking about, okay.

Salina: Yeah, I'm like that's for you all.

Salina: We know where it is and you should go listen because there was a lot of really good information in there.

Nikki: About the things, crucial information, very important.

Salina: You need to know about all the jerkies.

Salina: But like, I'm serious.

Nikki: I like Bucky's, one woman promotional show because I have another friend that I was like, I've talked about Bucky so many times.

Nikki: She finally texted me a couple of weeks ago and was like, we stopped on the way driving.

Salina: Stop now.

Nikki: And she was like, it's overwhelming.

Nikki: I don't know.

Nikki: I didn't get the sense she really was a full on Buckies convert the way that you are.

Nikki: Because she was just like it was just a lot.

Nikki: It was just overwhelming.

Salina: Well, she didn't give herself the appropriate three and a half hours to work her way through.

Nikki: Three and a half hours.

Nikki: You've got to time the trip.

Nikki: You don't want to go during peak Buckies hours.

Nikki: I'm trying to convince Kyle in the.

Salina: Middle of the night, went and peaked Buckies out.

Salina: That is one thing I should actually say.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: I'm trying to convince Kyle to go in the middle of the night so I can really enjoy myself.

Salina: That was tough.

Salina: Yeah, I think it's tough.

Nikki: Like 1030 in the morning until if I had to guess, like 07:00 at night.

Nikki: That's like peak time.

Nikki: Maybe you hit a lull around 3330.

Salina: But the only time I can recall seeing that many people in one place well, two times is any sporting event around a woman's bathroom, especially.

Salina: And yes, the bathroom is very clean and very well organized.

Salina: And actually what I would say is if I was in charge at a sporting event venue, I would hire the Buckies bathroom team to get in there and really work through the women's bathroom.

Salina: Let me tell you something.

Salina: Sporting events, places you would probably get even more people to come out to your events if women could get through your restrooms a little bit more quickly.

Salina: So just a plug from me to you.

Salina: This is a good idea.

Salina: Go get the Buckies team.

Salina: Get them in the bathrooms.

Nikki: Just an aside.

Salina: Just an aside for an aside on aside, this is actually maybe a good place for us to talk about the show.

Nikki: Oh, fine.

Nikki: Fine.

Nikki: We'll stop talking about Buckies.

Nikki: This week.

Nikki: We've got Odell.

Nikki: The Hulu episode description is its shades of Romeo and Juliet as two feuding mountain families descend on the women of Sugar Bakers.

Nikki: Air date March 6, 1989 we're calling this one The Hatfields and the McCoy's atl Style.

Salina: Can I stop there?

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: That's a horrible description.

Nikki: Oh, the hulu description.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: So I just want to say that Charlene's brother and his girlfriend run away from Poplar Bluff to a lope in Atlanta because their dads have been feuding for two decades.

Salina: I just feel like that's what's happening.

Salina: I know.

Salina: You don't want to give too much away.

Nikki: You've just given the whole episode away.

Salina: I mean, not that you left us.

Nikki: Nothing to talk about.

Salina: Salina.

Salina: Well, let's go ahead and hang up.

Nikki: All right, thanks.

Nikki: Bye.

Salina: See you later.

Nikki: It was written by LBT Cassandra Clark and Deborah Pearl.

Nikki: Is this the most co writers we've seen?

Nikki: I think three feels like a lot.

Nikki: Cassandra and Deborah have a writing credit for the TV show Delta, which starred Delta Burke.

Nikki: It was directed by Dwayne Hickman.

Nikki: Salina tells me Dwayne has quite a resume.

Nikki: He played the lead in the late 50s early 60s sitcom the Many Loves of Dobie Gillis opposite Bob Denver of Gilligan and Gilligan's Island fame.

Nikki: And he had a handful of directing credits in the late eighty s and early 90s, including this show, as well as sister Sister Charles in charge and head of the class.

Nikki: Unfortunately, he died in January of this year at the age of 87.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: And I want to say normally I wouldn't put that much information, but it was interesting to me.

Salina: I think this is the first director we've seen with a really sorry for the word robust but acting filmography.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: We haven't seen that a lot.

Salina: I was not familiar with this show, but just reading through it, I think it was a pretty big deal at the time.

Salina: The dobby gillis.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: The many loves of dobby gillis.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I think it was a hit.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: So general reactions and stray observations.

Nikki: Where you want to start?

Salina: For me, this one had some almost annoyingly coincidental timing, so it was kind of like, frustrating as a viewer.

Salina: Odell shows up at Sugar Bakers, and then only minutes behind him, his and Charlene's dad shows up and then immediately followed by Sissy's dad.

Salina: They all randomly know the right place to go to.

Salina: Also, Charlene and Odell's dad drove all the way to Atlanta from Missouri on a hunch.

Salina: No phone calls made, no checks.

Salina: I just thought that was kind of weird.

Salina: And then how did Sissy's dad know to go there?

Salina: They're in a feud.

Salina: They don't talk.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: And they were able to show up at the same time in minutes apart.

Salina: I'm not saying we couldn't patch together explanations.

Salina: We absolutely could.

Salina: Maybe the wives still talk, I get it.

Salina: But I'm just saying this is, again, a place where I feel like we're taking so many leaps that it's like, taking me out of the show.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: I want to comment on that, but I feel like either this feels like something normally I would have noticed, I'm a very big plot hole person.

Nikki: It just drives me crazy.

Nikki: And I'm totally fine to say it's a plot hole.

Nikki: I'm willing to suspend disbelief or whatever.

Nikki: Most of the time.

Nikki: It's interesting to me that I didn't pick up on any of that.

Nikki: So I'm feeling like maybe there was some script that explained this and I'm forgetting it.

Nikki: But yeah, those would be really big leaps to have to make.

Salina: And if it is that, if you go through cut lines or something and it starts to come together, then the other thing is, like, who will you making some bad cuts.

Nikki: I don't think those things come up in the cut lines.

Nikki: If memory serves, and I do agree.

Salina: With what you're saying, it is okay to suspend a little bit of reality when you're watching a show.

Salina: For me, it's just like, one or two things, but when it's just, like over and over and over again and this isn't to say I don't think the episode was enjoyable.

Salina: It's just that was my overall general reaction to this episode.

Nikki: Well, I have to say, I did not find this episode particularly enjoyable.

Nikki: In fact, we talk about this a lot, how we sort of pre watch the season before we really dig into everything, just to sort of know where we're going this season, to sort of have an idea of some of the things that are coming up.

Nikki: Oftentimes I've forgotten by the time we get to the episode and we're actually talking about it, I've forgotten what I saw in pre watch.

Nikki: Except there's something about Charlene's brother this season.

Nikki: I did remember with this one, I did not remember it being a great watch.

Nikki: It was better on rewatch, but this is not one of my favorites.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Did you have other general reactions?

Nikki: Well, the other one I have was originally in my dislikes, and I moved it up to a general reaction because it's a thread that sort of weaves throughout the episode, and it's just the thread of homophobia that ran through the episode.

Nikki: So Charlene seemed, like, super upset that, worst case scenario, her brother was coming to tell her he was gay.

Nikki: Which doesn't track one with Charlene as a person, and it doesn't track with what we experienced with Kendall in that episode, killing all the Right People, where they were very understanding and appreciative of him.

Nikki: He's someone they knew and they didn't want him to go through these terrible things.

Nikki: So I think it tracks with the history of Charlene's life, the way she was raised, where she was raised, all these things that we've learned about her along the way.

Nikki: They're a conservative family, blah, blah, blah, but it just felt cheap.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I wonder if some of it is.

Salina: First of all, that feels very 80s.

Salina: That whole thing did.

Salina: Right.

Salina: And then they're in the 80s, so it's going to not be a 2022 bend on the LGBTQ community.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: Well, and I think that it tracks again, and I think this is the point I want to make sure to articulate about this.

Nikki: It bums me out.

Nikki: It bums me out.

Nikki: But I'm sure it was not homophobia on the part of the writers.

Nikki: I think that it was a strategic decision about what would have been worst case scenario for someone in Charlene's situation in that point in time, in 1989.

Salina: Absolutely.

Nikki: So it tracks with her character.

Nikki: It's really hard for me to pull that apart from my rewatch that, like, Charlene is this overwhelmingly kind, empathetic person.

Nikki: She has experienced having a friend who was gay, someone who meant a lot to her and watching what that did to their lives, and still that's the first thing that registers for her is, oh, my God, my brother's coming to tell me he's gay.

Nikki: It just bummed me out.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: And it made it hard to watch the episode.

Salina: Right.

Salina: And I think it is such a snapshot of where this country was then and it changed a lot.

Nikki: Yeah, that was another general reaction that was just really hard for me to watch.

Nikki: And then my last one was just that as hard as that was for me to watch.

Nikki: I loved watching Anthony and Bernice together, and I feel like that's a pairing we don't get very often.

Nikki: So that was delightful.

Salina: But maybe it's the pairing we always need, I think.

Salina: So strays.

Nikki: Mary Joe went on a diatribe about pantyhose, and then that led to a rant about male inventors.

Nikki: And it was just a shame to me that we would skip over that and not talk about some fantastic female inventors.

Nikki: So this is astray, but I had.

Salina: A couple of things I want to Nicky's Sidebar.

Nikki: I could have Nicky's Sidebar with no music.

Nikki: I should read.

Salina: Did you put in the music?

Nikki: I should redo your Salina sidebar music.

Nikki: But just like every now and then, go, Nikki, nikki, please.

Nikki: Sidebar.

Nikki: Nicky Sidebar.

Salina: I love it.

Nikki: It's a sidebar.

Nikki: Nicky Sidebar.

Nikki: She's got a keyboard looking for a reward by taking deep in the obscure, taking us on a detour.

Nikki: What you got, Mickey?

Nikki: Mickey sidebar.

Nikki: But I just have a handful of them that I just thought would be interesting to talk about the ice cream maker was invented by a woman in 1843.

Nikki: Nancy Johnson created her double cylinder hand cranked ice cream maker invention.

Salina: Wow, that's cool.

Nikki: So thanks, Nancy, for ice cream.

Salina: Yes.

Salina: Thank you, Nancy.

Nikki: A dishwasher that actually cleaned prototypes of dishwashers washers existed before 1872, but Josephine Cochrane was the first to think of using water pressure instead of scrubbers to clean the dishes.

Nikki: Well, I know the coffee filter was invented by Melita Benz in 1908.

Nikki: You'll still see Melita branded products in the grocery store.

Nikki: They're named after this German entrepreneur who invented the filter as an easier way to make coffee.

Salina: I'll have to be on the lookout for that.

Nikki: And then I'm going to link to an article in our show Notes, because it has a lot more examples, but it included things like caller ID, laser cataract surgery, kevlar, scotchguard, all invented by women.

Nikki: So as terrible as pantyhose are and actually pantyhose were invented by a man, for sure, but it was because his wife didn't like I think it was like garter belts or something.

Nikki: They were just hard for her to handle, maybe during pregnancy or something.

Nikki: So he invented pantyhose, actually to solve a problem for her, and they worked together on it.

Nikki: She sewed them, he got credit, but they did it.

Salina: She didn't like the garter belt.

Salina: That wasn't a good time.

Nikki: She didn't like it.

Salina: That's so strange.

Salina: Other strays.

Nikki: The last one I wanted to point out was that there's a different Bud Fraser in this episode than we had in season one, episode 17, Nashville Bound.

Nikki: That one was James Ray.

Nikki: This time we had sandy Kenyan.

Nikki: And on that note of continuation and consistency, according to the cut lines I reported on in episode eleven, the name Odell was ringing for me for some reason.

Nikki: Odell is the brother charlene and her friend watched Sleep with no Pants On.

Nikki: There was like this whole cut line.

Nikki: Again, this is episode eleven where she said they, like, propped a flashlight up.

Salina: And watched it, and it was just really weird.

Nikki: It's weird because he's 19 now, and Charlene is at least a decade older.

Nikki: So that would have made her watching her nine year old naked brother.

Nikki: Even if it was like a decade.

Nikki: It's just a weird continuity thing.

Salina: It made the story even weirder.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: It was a weird story in the first place.

Nikki: And then the fact that it would have been her little, little brother just odd.

Salina: Okay, I just wanted to point that out.

Salina: Yeah, that'll stick with me.

Nikki: Thank you.

Nikki: They're strays, man.

Nikki: I told you I had some strays this week.

Salina: Yeah, no, well, that's the category, so thank you.

Salina: So mine is actually about Odell, too, which is I was just curious, like, if his accent because we had a lot of mountain people coming in, so I just wanted to know if that hit for you or not.

Nikki: It did not.

Nikki: I didn't even notice.

Salina: So I looked him up.

Salina: He's from Ohio.

Salina: And my reaction is I'd say he's laying it on pretty thick.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: But, yeah, you're probably right.

Salina: And I also noticed the thing with Charlene's dad, just a little sneak peek.

Salina: It's very possible we might see a third Bud Fraser.

Salina: Oh, this prepare yourself.

Salina: Yes, we're going to see a third Bud Fraser.

Nikki: Cool.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: So bring it on, baby.

Nikki: Rachel sales, give me another stray.

Salina: Well, I took it, but we'll talk about it then, right?

Salina: So what'd you like in this one?

Nikki: Bernice?

Nikki: Just in general.

Nikki: And then the idea of Bernice being married to a man whose family owned a circus, it shreks out about that part.

Salina: Yeah, that was nice.

Nikki: I love it again.

Nikki: I always love when we leave Sugar Bakers.

Nikki: This time we left to go to a temple.

Nikki: That was fun.

Nikki: Just a little different.

Nikki: And then my last one is that I really liked that touching moment at the end where Charlene lectured her father on family.

Nikki: I thought this was totally absurd episode and not my favorite, but that really made it sensitive and personal.

Salina: What's?

Salina: Gene Smart?

Nikki: Yeah, she delivered that really beautifully.

Salina: This was also a like for me.

Salina: I think we just continue to see her acting chops and I don't know, I think that's been one of the really interesting things on this.

Salina: What I guess is technically a rewatch for me in some regards, but like, seeing the Gene Smart that's out there now and really, actually getting some well deserved accolades and then watching and you just see it here and you're like, yeah, man, she's really good.

Nikki: That scene could have read really cheesy and it didn't.

Nikki: For me, I thought it was really nice.

Nikki: It was really nicely done.

Nikki: I could see where it could have felt really lame.

Nikki: And the acting just did it justice.

Salina: I liked it.

Salina: Totally agree.

Salina: So I have Anthony and Bernice as comic relief.

Salina: That's one of my likes.

Salina: And their big dance contest costume reveal when things are getting tense between the feuding fathers.

Salina: And then my absolute favorite part of this little runner between the two of them is Bernice.

Salina: Like, forgets about the dance contest completely.

Salina: Like, while they're there dressed in their costumes, they're costumes that look like the dance contest costumes from some Saved by the Bell episode.

Salina: And she asks Anthony if they're dating since they're dressed alike, which is actually a thing that happens where I know some couples purposely do it.

Salina: Whereas if Casey and I even both come out in blue, I'm like, one of us has to change.

Nikki: We have to change.

Nikki: We can't go out like this.

Nikki: Somehow.

Nikki: Embarrassing.

Salina: Somebody's got to make a move.

Nikki: Kyle and I can't even order the same thing at a restaurant.

Nikki: That freaks me out too much.

Salina: Well, don't you also want to taste something different?

Nikki: You do.

Salina: Maybe Kyle doesn't.

Nikki: Yeah, Kyle would never taste mine.

Nikki: It's definitely part of it.

Nikki: And there's like a financial aspect somehow in my head.

Nikki: I can't get past paying the same amount of money to order just double the food.

Nikki: Do you know what I mean?

Nikki: Absolutely.

Nikki: You should get something different.

Nikki: So we definitely have to strategize around ordering.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: It's half of marriage.

Nikki: It is.

Salina: Or a relationship.

Nikki: It is, yeah.

Salina: You don't have to be married to.

Nikki: Fight over food or a friendship.

Nikki: Like, if you end up at the same restaurant.

Salina: Friends.

Salina: Absolutely.

Salina: Oh, gosh.

Salina: It's like an 80 hours ordeal.

Nikki: It is.

Salina: I have one more like and that's that suzanne gets fed up towards the end when Bud and Mr.

Salina: Sloan are fighting, and she says, I don't usually get involved in these backwoods brouhah, and I just love that.

Nikki: So things we didn't like.

Nikki: What do you have?

Salina: I've already said the overly coincidental timing took me out.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: But I'll also say that the pacing was a little weird.

Salina: So I don't know if you noticed this or not, but we didn't actually get to the main plot of the episode until almost a third of the way through.

Salina: I will admit that a third of 22 minutes isn't the longest amount of time, but exactly 22 minutes is not a long amount of time.

Salina: So you need to really use every minute of that episode.

Salina: And I just think that it made the end feel especially rushed.

Salina: And then I feel robbed that we didn't get to see Anthony and Bernice cut a rug.

Nikki: Same.

Nikki: Yeah, I had the same exact did you really?

Salina: Did you also say cut a rug?

Nikki: Get down.

Nikki: With their bad selves.

Salina: Two sides of the same coin?

Salina: No.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: That was sad to me.

Nikki: And then also, just like I said earlier, the threat of homophobia, it felt cheap.

Nikki: I understand there's probably a strategic because I don't think LBT and her co writers are homophobic.

Nikki: I don't think that.

Nikki: So I think there's probably a really good reason it was there.

Nikki: It's just really hard to disentangle that.

Salina: I think it's a sign of the times I actually had something and then I took it out only because I was like, we covered this a few times.

Salina: But I'm really glad that you brought it up because I also don't want to gloss over things.

Salina: So thank you for unlaising my lazy.

Nikki: I don't think it was lazy, but you're welcome that I could bring that back up for you.

Salina: But it is something that it's not like it's gone away, for starters, but it was something that is.

Salina: So I think it just hits harder now that we are here in life.

Nikki: So I googled it a little bit because I was curious if this is anything anybody's ever noticed before and that nothing came back with Designing Women, obviously lots of things with friends, because I think that's gotten a lot of heat in the most recent years for how homophobic and transphobic.

Nikki: It is.

Nikki: But it led me to a BuzzFeed article that included examples of times these things have happened, and there were some interesting perspectives in the comments, and it's not always that way, but I thought it was really interesting to hear it from both angles.

Nikki: And someone made the point that the show writers don't have to teach people that these things are wrong, and sometimes they put those things in there for a strategic reason, like to get people thinking about it or because it tracks with a character's backstory or something.

Nikki: So, again, I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater with it by pulling it out and saying, like, this is the worst thing in the world, but it just feels weird to gloss over because it was something that stuck with me the entire freaking episode.

Salina: Can I also say it?

Salina: I think you just said something that was really important.

Salina: Two perspectives.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Multiple perspectives, for sure.

Salina: It's almost like instead of yelling at one another, we should have a conversation.

Nikki: It's interesting.

Nikki: No, it's interesting.

Salina: Anyhow you want to rate this sucker?

Nikki: I do.

Salina: What'd you give it?

Nikki: I gave it three out of five pantyhose that can survive a hangnail.

Salina: I like it.

Nikki: I guess I was really into the pantyhose thing.

Nikki: I don't know.

Nikki: It was an okay watch.

Nikki: I put it off for a couple of days because I just really wasn't looking forward to it.

Nikki: But when I finally watched it, it was fine.

Nikki: It wasn't my favorite.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: I feel like three out of five now that I'm looking at, I'm like, that feels generous.

Nikki: But that's what I gave it.

Salina: Well, we're very close.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: I gave it 3.2 out of five backwoods bruha Hawk.

Salina: I just really like that I have to tuck that away in my back pocket.

Salina: I have family from the backwoods, so I feel like I'm you're, like, in a pass, right?

Nikki: Yeah, sure.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I think the idea was cute.

Salina: The execution was a little off.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Who won the episode and who butted off biscuits?

Nikki: So I think there were a few potential winners in this one, but I ended up going with the rabbi.

Nikki: He was on screen for, like, maybe 30 seconds, but he played a really important role.

Nikki: He was the kid's last ditch effort, but he shared a few words of wisdom that slowed their momentum enough to talk some sense into him.

Salina: So I really liked that.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: All right.

Salina: I like that take.

Salina: I have Bernice and Anthony.

Salina: They danced their way into my heart once again.

Salina: In this episode.

Nikki: They were top contenders for me, as was Suzanne, because she was the voice of reason at the very end, because she was the one that said, like, I usually don't get involved in the backwoods, brouhas, but you guys are being silly.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: You're just taking too long.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: With the 22 minutes.

Salina: Is all this stuff.

Nikki: So that was it.

Salina: Who lost this episode?

Salina: Who served us lumpy gravy?

Nikki: I think this one's cheap because they were meant to look like jackasses, which is the word they used about twelve times in the last two minutes of the episode.

Nikki: But it was Bud Fraser and Earl Sloan.

Nikki: They were bickering for such dumb reasons and it made them look like lumpy gravy.

Salina: Yeah, looking like lumpy gravy.

Salina: I have that we lost because we never got to see Bernice and Anthony.

Salina: This is really a recurring theme for me in this one, which I think shows you how much I was into that plot.

Nikki: Yeah, for sure.

Salina: All I wanted to do was have a webisode with Bernice and Anthony.

Nikki: Agreed.

Salina: Let's talk about some 80s things.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: Pantyhose being the wardrobe issue of number one.

Nikki: God, could you imagine?

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Lucky if I get like any sort of waistband on my pants these days.

Salina: We're very American.

Salina: I don't know if you know that or not.

Salina: When you're over in I feel like other countries, they wear they're not necessarily pantyhose.

Salina: They're like some kind of sheer tight.

Salina: I don't know this, but when I was in Paris, I felt like all of the like 20 somethings and it was fall.

Salina: Obviously you're not going to be like in summertime and be like, I think I'll put on something very hot so.

Nikki: They'Re kind of practical, like a legging stand up.

Salina: We're over here in our long t shirts and our leggings let me just.

Nikki: Say that Salina makes us sound like trolls.

Salina: Well, you kind of feel like one when you're out when you're out of the US.

Salina: I did the whole time it was like you were just very much so, like, you might as well just write America across your chest.

Salina: And I'm like, whatever, I'm comfortable.

Salina: I'm comfortable in my leggings.

Salina: But yeah, it did feel like there was a lot of skirts, sheer tights sweater situations.

Salina: They looked real cute.

Salina: I did feel like a troll.

Salina: Does that count?

Salina: I don't know.

Nikki: We also have the Geraldo Rivera show.

Salina: It's like our list is in exact order.

Nikki: Okay, perfect.

Nikki: Probably just in order of the episode.

Nikki: That was a daytime talk show that Geraldo Rivera, who was an American journalist who is an American journalist and commentator, hosted and produced for eleven years.

Nikki: The show was labeled trash TV by Newsweek and several US.

Nikki: Senators.

Salina: Well, Geraldo's worn a number of hats.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Journalist, attorney, author, and political commentator.

Salina: But that's why he's here, right?

Salina: Sitting in the 80s category for sure.

Salina: This TV show that was on for ten years or whatever, right?

Nikki: And then I wrote down Red Wax Lips Candy, because Charlene mentions this, that her and her brother love to use these.

Nikki: And that just feels like eighty S to me.

Nikki: They're in that category of like those little wax Coca Cola bottle candies that you peel the lid off.

Nikki: So I wanted to mention that here the People's Court, which I get confused with Judge Judy, or I did in my head until I kind of dug into it a little bit.

Nikki: But they're similar ilk TV shows about an arbitrator helping settle small claims in a simulated courtroom.

Nikki: They get very dramatic.

Nikki: According to Wikipedia, the original People's Court ran from 81 to 93, still on, and the current revival debuted in 97.

Salina: That's crazy, right?

Nikki: It is crazy.

Nikki: This is the Judge Wapner show.

Salina: I can kind of hear the theme music in my head as they're, like, walking through the doors because it was like the thing that would interrupt my cartoons when I was like a kid and I'd be like, I'm trying to watch Disney or whatever.

Salina: It was probably more like a Nickelodeon situation, right?

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: So that always sticks in my head as just being this interrupter a disruptor, if you will.

Nikki: Oh, see, and I loved watching it.

Nikki: And I get them all confused because I feel like I would just sort of flip through and see which one because there were several that were on at one point in time.

Nikki: They're all very dramatic.

Salina: That judge Judy still on.

Nikki: Yeah, she went off the air in 2020 or 2021, but she's in another show now, like Judge Judy ended and now she's got something else going on.

Nikki: She's not completely gone.

Salina: Yeah, one of my oldest friends, I mean, like not old for the planet, but like, oldest friend Chips.

Salina: She is a huge Judge Judy.

Nikki: She's glorious.

Nikki: She is who we all should aspire to be in terms of just being really forthright and not taking any of the BS.

Salina: Yeah, I think that's a lot to do with why she loves her.

Salina: But I would go over to her house in high school, after.

Nikki: School.

Salina: So well articulated.

Salina: But anyways, I would go over to her house and she watched it religiously every afternoon.

Salina: And I'm telling you, three years ago I would text her and she would be watching Judge Judy like, big fan.

Nikki: It's a good show.

Nikki: And the last one I had in this category is only sort of relevant.

Nikki: It's Sears Roebuck undershirts.

Nikki: It just felt old.

Nikki: So I don't know how to say that.

Salina: Well, Roebuck is not really a part of the scenario anymore and Sears is barely part of the scenario.

Salina: Sorry, Sears.

Salina: So I have one that's kind of like the flip side of what you brought up in Nikki sidebar earlier, which I loved.

Salina: I really hope you do that to.

Nikki: The Nikki's reboot of Salina cyber.

Salina: So in that exchange, what I was picking up on was basically them calling NASA out for having very few women scientists.

Salina: That was sort of my read on the so I also love that you picked up on another part.

Salina: Basically what we were both telling the world to do is be better but different ways.

Salina: So I wound up double checking because I think that was very much of the time period.

Salina: Like, well, maybe if we had a couple more female scientists around, we would have this panic hose situation figured out.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: But I wound up looking into NASA, and at least as of 2019, women are still a pretty big minority at the agency.

Salina: Are they an agency?

Salina: Anyways, looks like only a quarter of their AST physical scientists were women at the time.

Salina: That was just three years ago.

Nikki: Oh, dang.

Nikki: Yeah, that's thanks.

Salina: I was just bringing it down.

Salina: Southern things.

Nikki: I have several they said hillbilly.

Nikki: I brought it up mostly so that I could plug your season one, episode four segment.

Nikki: Let's talk about Hicks, baby.

Nikki: Let's talk about Rednecks Two.

Nikki: Let's talk about Billies from the hill and what they do.

Nikki: Let's Talk about Hicks.

Nikki: I brought that up for you.

Salina: Thank you.

Salina: I appreciate it.

Nikki: It stuck with me all these seasons later.

Nikki: Mammy and Pappy Yokum is something that Julia says.

Nikki: I feel like I know this, but not like I could never have explained this without looking it up.

Nikki: The Lil Abner comic strip about a fictional hillbilly clan who live in Dog Patch, USA.

Nikki: And Dog Patch is actually I've heard that as a reference in movies and stuff.

Nikki: It's in the movie overboard.

Nikki: She says something about being from Dog Patch.

Nikki: I never realized it was related to this.

Nikki: I love that movie.

Salina: Wait, the original or the remake?

Nikki: I've never seen the remake.

Nikki: The original is fantastic.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: This comic strip.

Nikki: So this is a comic strip ran for 43 years, from 1934 to 1977.

Nikki: That was, like, a really, really long time.

Nikki: The there's a quote in the Wikipedia article about this comic strip that says, the illustrator of the comic quote had a profound influence on the way the world viewed the American South.

Nikki: And then I think, as we learned from this episode reference, maybe it wasn't the most flattering.

Salina: I think that's right.

Salina: He was also from Connecticut.

Nikki: Well, there you go.

Salina: Come on, man.

Nikki: You don't get to do that.

Salina: I think people so I've heard I feel silly because I've definitely heard about Lil Abner several times, but I never cared enough to ask.

Salina: So, like, when I would hear about this character in conversations, I just assumed it was something from a long time ago and just kept it moving.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: And so this was the first time that I'd really looked into it.

Salina: So I just wanted to attack on a couple of things.

Salina: Yokum is a combination of Yoko and Hokum.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: Like a local yokel.

Salina: And this is an uneducated and unsophisticated person from the countryside.

Salina: Hokum is a particular song type of American blues music.

Salina: So I say all that.

Salina: To say that that last name I don't think is a compliment.

Salina: But I do actually think that these were very beloved characters.

Salina: That's where it gets challenging.

Salina: Right.

Salina: Because it did probably introduce a ton of stereotypes for 43 years.

Salina: There was 60 million readers, by the way, and it was international too.

Salina: So this is also the way that people outside of the US.

Salina: View the American South.

Salina: It's like some good and some bad, I guess, because if they are lovable, then I think that part is fine.

Salina: If they think that everyone is a backhood zabruha right, then we have a little trouble on our hands.

Salina: That's okay.

Salina: We're fixing it.

Nikki: We're fixing it right now with this show.

Salina: What other southern things did you have?

Nikki: Moonshine.

Nikki: I cannot remember now.

Salina: When that came up, it was hillbilly traits mentioned by Julia, she says.

Salina: I think she's trying to paint a picture of smoking corn cob pipes and drinking moonshine.

Nikki: That's right.

Nikki: Okay, so for anyone who doesn't know, moonshine is a high proof liquor that has historically been made illegally, quote, by the light of the moon.

Salina: I feel like we should probably do something at some point on moonshine.

Nikki: I feel like we've maybe talked about that before because moonshine can cocktails.

Nikki: Maybe moonshine also has to do with the start of NASCAR.

Nikki: That's how they got started.

Nikki: Stock car racing was because they were driving as quickly as they could through the night, so they didn't get stopped by the police to transport moonshine.

Nikki: So there's a lot to it.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I think it's almost starting to feed into this week's extra sugar.

Salina: This isn't actually something I really cover, but moonshine became illegal.

Salina: They were already doing it right when these federal laws were passed.

Salina: That type of distilling was no longer allowed and it really cut off people's, like a financial method for people.

Salina: That is a really weird way to say that, but you know what I'm saying?

Salina: So they were really hitting people's pockets with that.

Salina: And what I think would be interesting is I haven't had time to dig into this yet, but I want to out of just my own personal interest.

Salina: And we could come here and talk about it if you want to, but it's like, what drove that I'm sure had nothing to do with the government making money.

Salina: I'm sure that had nothing to do with it.

Salina: I'm sure it was all good intention and we just care about people.

Salina: Just saying.

Nikki: I had two others we've talked about backwoods brouhahas.

Nikki: The last one I had, they mentioned waycross, which is like a weirdly specific reference to a town here in Georgia.

Nikki: I'm pretty sure that's what she said.

Nikki: It's in the script.

Nikki: But charlene says something.

Nikki: She was talking about, I don't care if Odell goes to wherever wherever.

Nikki: Waycross was one of the places she said, like, I don't care if he goes there to get married.

Nikki: I really can't figure out why she mentioned waycross.

Nikki: Did you have this in your notes anywhere?

Salina: I think I looked it up and then I couldn't find anything that made sense to me and I dropped it.

Nikki: There was nothing in there about, like, it was the only place you could legally get married.

Nikki: It's not like it's a Vegas of Georgia.

Nikki: Like you can legally get married within an hour or anything.

Nikki: I didn't find anything like that, so I don't know why she mentioned it.

Nikki: So I have nothing useful to share there.

Nikki: But I did find out that the Bubba Burger was invented in Waycross.

Salina: Really?

Nikki: And Waycross is a town that's about 4 hours south of Atlanta.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: South from Atlanta.

Nikki: Let me just say I don't know if it's south.

Nikki: I'm not great with that.

Nikki: It's 4 hours from Atlanta.

Nikki: It's a weird reference.

Salina: Maybe it's just like this idea of it's like I don't care if you get married in ten buck two maybe.

Nikki: But yeah, lake crosses.

Nikki: I don't know that that's the one that would have come to mind for me.

Salina: Yeah, I don't know.

Salina: It's just weird reference, I think.

Salina: Oh, I've got a couple.

Salina: Suzanne goes on this tear you mentioned earlier, the perspiration thing.

Salina: But she goes on this tear about how she doesn't perspire and no one in her family does, nor have they in three generations.

Salina: And I just felt like that sounded very, like southern belish.

Salina: Yeah, not embellish like a southern bell.

Nikki: But also ish.

Salina: References that we need to talk about outside of southern references.

Nikki: Charlene said she was late because she was watching this morning show, and she says Harry what's his name just kept announcing the time.

Nikki: I think that's Harry Smith, who was on the CBS morning show, it's my grandfather.

Salina: That was his name.

Nikki: Oh, I should have triggered warning to you before I said that.

Salina: Oh, I mean, I'm fine.

Nikki: Okay, so Harry not Salina's grandfather.

Nikki: Smith hosted the CBS morning shows, like, a combination of them for 17 years.

Nikki: And then of course, Designing Women was on CBS.

Salina: That's so funny.

Salina: I thought they were talking about Harry Connock Jr.

Salina: I was like, maybe he was on the show that day, like singing in or something.

Salina: I think he was already singing.

Salina: He wound up being on Cheers around that time.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I think he's just aged well.

Nikki: He's very beautiful.

Salina: Fine wine.

Nikki: He really is.

Salina: You're fine wine.

Salina: He's very beautiful.

Salina: But so I had not put that together.

Salina: I did think it was weird that we got that sort of, like, in show plug.

Salina: And then I'll go ahead and connect that to my reference, which was some good old fashioned McDonald's product placement.

Salina: Designing women brought to you by McDonald's.

Salina: Anthony brings in chicken McNuggets, a FileTO fish classics, but we also get a McDLT.

Salina: Did you know what this was?

Salina: I'm guessing not, since you didn't notice the McDonald's product placement.

Nikki: I don't remember it.

Nikki: I probably noticed it.

Nikki: I don't remember it.

Nikki: McDLT.

Salina: I had to look it up.

Salina: It's where they put the meat on one side and then they put the veggies and cheese on the other in this, like, styrofoam contraption thing.

Salina: And it's to keep the lettuce and tomato from getting mushy.

Nikki: Oh, sure.

Salina: I want to bring up the fact that why would you put the cheese on the other side and not on the meat?

Salina: This is apparently I'm not the only one who feels this way because this is like you want the cheese on the meat to melt.

Nikki: You want it to melt so you.

Salina: Don'T have hard cheese.

Salina: Anyways, it gets discontinued in 1998.

Salina: What I don't understand is why I don't remember that.

Salina: Because I hate to admit it, but we were alive in 1998 and I don't have any memory of this.

Salina: I just need to mention one more thing to you.

Salina: There is a glorious commercial that comes out in the late eighty S with Jason Alexander, aka George Costanza from Seinfeld, where there's like literally a musical happening around this McDLT, and he's like running.

Nikki: Through the street singing, my McDonald's reference is forever and always going to be the McRib from Ozzy.

Nikki: Osborne's daughter on the Osbournes lost her mind over the McRib and people love it.

Nikki: That's when I think of McDonald's.

Salina: Not natural.

Nikki: That's one of the things I think of the McRib.

Salina: Everything else there is natural for sure.

Nikki: But the McRib and that fish, I'm not feeling good about that.

Salina: Have you had it?

Nikki: I'm not feeling good about it.

Salina: So you never had it?

Nikki: It's not bad.

Salina: I don't know there's any fast food that I haven't tried.

Nikki: Can I also just mention Three Rivers Junior College is where she says Odell goes to school.

Nikki: That is actually a public community college in Poplar Bluff, and it was founded in 1966.

Salina: Oh, okay.

Salina: All right.

Nikki: I wanted to mention that.

Salina: Did you have other references?

Nikki: I did not.

Salina: I'll just say that we did get a Chuck Berry reference.

Salina: He is the pioneer of rock and roll.

Salina: So I feel like we'll just give him a little because that's important.

Salina: And we also get a Sammy Davis Jr.

Salina: Mention as well.

Salina: So also pretty swell guy.

Salina: So part of the Rat Pack.

Salina: What I'm trying not to do is go on a 20 minutes explanation of who everyone is.

Salina: Listen, if you're listening and you don't know who Sammy Davis Jr.

Salina: Is, please go look him up.

Nikki: No.

Nikki: Send us an email and tell us you want an extra sugar on it because then we can do something different.

Nikki: We can go down the rabbit hole.

Salina: I don't know that he's Southern, but.

Nikki: We'Ll still do figure out something.

Salina: I'm sure.

Nikki: We don't always cover Southern stuff in extra sugar only.

Nikki: Yeah, you're right.

Salina: You don't cut lines.

Nikki: There were a couple of cuts in the middle of the episode, that scene where Odell shows up, but there was one really big one.

Nikki: So you were asking earlier if something you were bringing up was cut, and maybe that was a big part of the episode.

Nikki: I don't think so, because this was the cut that said the most to me, they actually explain why they want to get married so quickly, and that it's not pregnancy and that it's not anything else, and why they need Charlene's help.

Nikki: So I guess it's odell says, Judge Clarkson said he couldn't marry us, and no other preacher in town would either, because they knew how our families feel.

Nikki: So, Charlene, I was hoping maybe you could help us.

Nikki: And she says, Odell?

Nikki: And he says, no, sissy's not pregnant.

Nikki: We're just in love, that's all.

Nikki: And Mommy and Daddy weren't any older than us when they got married.

Nikki: And Charlene says, Couldn't you all just wait a little bit longer?

Nikki: Just give everybody a chance to get used to the idea.

Nikki: Charlene, they'll never get used to the idea.

Nikki: At least the Sloans won't anyway.

Nikki: We're tired of waiting.

Nikki: We've been waiting all our lives.

Nikki: You mean you two have never know we're both virgins?

Nikki: Hey, don't be telling them that.

Nikki: Well, it's the truth.

Nikki: So you've been saving yourself for each other?

Nikki: Oh, that's so romantic.

Nikki: I think I'm going to cry.

Nikki: Yeah, I think I'll cry too.

Nikki: Anyway, Charlene, we're ready to get the show on the road.

Salina: I struggle with that because it is a big cut, but also, I don't know that it gave anything to the episode.

Nikki: It just sort of explains a little bit more about why they again, losing your virginity and that being a requirement of marriage, like, is another dated plotline.

Nikki: But it sort of explains a little bit more why they were sort of in a hurry.

Salina: Oh, they wanted to get laid.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Oh, yeah.

Salina: I didn't even think about it from that perspective.

Salina: That was the whole point.

Nikki: That's why they were saying they wanted to get married.

Salina: Really got to get the show on the road.

Nikki: They got to get the show on the road.

Salina: We've been in love since we were eleven and we're 19.

Nikki: I'm not arguing that it was like a cut that ruined the episode or anything.

Nikki: More than anything, we probably would have spent a lot of time talking about what a jacked up storyline that is, that you have to be married in order, buddy.

Nikki: And then that's why you should rush.

Salina: Getting don't worry, we'll get there too.

Salina: We've got lots of extra sugars this season.

Nikki: So anyway, that was the only cut line I really wanted to talk about.

Nikki: Okay, so our next episode, episode 15, Full Moon.

Nikki: This is what I was thinking of.

Nikki: We're going to have an extra sugar in that episode.

Nikki: That is not Southern.

Nikki: It's about full moons.

Salina: Oh, yeah.

Nikki: We'd love everyone to follow along with us and engage Instagram and Facebook at Sweetteantv.

Nikki: You can email us at

Nikki: And our website is

Nikki: On Instagram, we did a reel since you brought up Buckies at the top of this episode, we did a reel about what if the Designing Women shopped at Buckies?

Nikki: What would they buy?

Nikki: So if you're not looking at us on Instagram, that would be a fun one to go back and look for.

Nikki: As always, we're so grateful to everyone for listening week after week.

Nikki: And if you're inclined to support the show a little bit more, there are some options.

Nikki: You can tell your friends and family about us.

Nikki: You can rate and review the podcast wherever you listen, and then you can visit the support us tab on our website where you can find a couple other ways to support the show, including joining our patreon circle, which can be fun because sometimes there's some fun stuff we drop in there and hang tight for Extra Sugar.

Nikki: What are you going to talk about this week, Salina?

Salina: We're going to dig into arguably the greatest feud in all of American history, and it just happens to be right down here in the south.

Salina: That's it?

Nikki: That's it.

Salina: All right, well, you know what that means.

Nikki: What does it mean, Salina?

Salina: Means we'll see you around the bin by welcome to this week's edition of Extra Sugar.

Salina: Okay, so I may have not been the biggest fan of this week's episode, but me neither.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: That said, I was a big fan of what it gave me the opportunity to explore, and it was hard to watch and not think about one of the most famous family feuds in American history, the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Salina: For me, it feels like I've known about them just my entire life.

Salina: I think it speaks to how deeply entrenched they are in American culture because the most critical events first happened some 150 years ago.

Nikki: Oh, my.

Salina: How familiar are you with the feud?

Nikki: I am not familiar.

Nikki: I am familiar enough to know it exists.

Nikki: And to your point, I can't remember a time when I didn't know this was a thing.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: I don't know the specifics.

Salina: Right.

Salina: So I think similar, before this started, I knew the bare minimum going into this segment.

Salina: While I wouldn't say I've ever given it a ton of thought, I'm not ever sitting there.

Nikki: I'm like, oh, I got to think.

Salina: I mean, I have now those Hatfields and McCoy now, it's really been on the brain a lot lately, but typically it had not been.

Salina: But I will say that my vision of these families was really quite caricature like and cartoonish, and it very much so.

Salina: I think, like some of the things that were being described in this episode moonshine drinking, smoking corn, cob pipes, like that kind of thing.

Nikki: Yes.

Nikki: Because there's that place in Pigeon Forge that's the Hatfield and McCoy dinner.

Nikki: Do you know what I'm talking about?

Nikki: I do.

Salina: I don't think I've been inside, but I've seen it from the street.

Nikki: I think the sign is like, yellow.

Nikki: There's like guns and maybe cowboy hats or something.

Salina: Naturally.

Salina: So we're just really playing it up.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Even in the south.

Salina: But I do think we'll get there.

Salina: But.

Salina: It's actually not surprising that these kind of caricature like images come to mind.

Salina: But before we dig in, let's do what we always do, and let's start with the basics.

Salina: So what is a feud?

Salina: What is a family feud TV show?

Salina: We'll get there.

Salina: Feud is a prolonged ambit.

Nikki: Maybe sometimes.

Salina: A family feud is a bitter, often prolonged quarrel or state of enmity, especially such a state of hostilities between two families or clans.

Salina: And yes, you were wondering, it's rumored that the infamous feud inspired the game show.

Salina: Oh.

Salina: So in fact, members of both families appeared on the show in 1979, in case you were wondering.

Salina: Again, the hat filled one.

Salina: So I looked into some other southern feuds, but in the interest of time and sanity, we'll keep our focus to the one and then link to some of these others if you want to learn more.

Salina: Because today, guys, there's no time for quibbles, quarrels, or minor disputes.

Salina: We're talking about the mama and daddy of all feuds, y'all.

Salina: It's the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Salina: Let's talk about the cause.

Salina: To start off.

Salina: So it depends on who you ask, but there were really two major players involved in those most crucial and heated years.

Salina: The patriarchs of both families, mr.

Salina: William Anderson Hatfield, aka.

Salina: Devil Annes and Randolph or Randall McCoy.

Salina: Here's where it gets tricky, if not obvious, and that's the fact that there wasn't always a feud.

Salina: So we're talking about people who went to war together, they worked together, some of them were married to one another.

Salina: So it makes it a little enmeshed from the very get.

Salina: But from 1865 through 1880, historians point to three different events as the starting point of the feud.

Salina: Number one is the murder of Randall's brother, Harmon.

Salina: It sounds serious.

Salina: Two, Randall accusing Floyd Hatfield of stealing his razorbacks.

Salina: I do mean pigs.

Salina: These were a huge commodity in Appalachia, so it's like it literally was equated to taking food off of someone's table.

Salina: And then number three, a fairly disastrous and brief love affair between the two patriarchs children, which does feel a little bit to hearken to this episode, except I think it turns out a little happier for Odell.

Nikki: Real quick, you said the razorbacks being like, a big commodity in Appalachia.

Nikki: Does that mean where did this happen?

Nikki: Is this virginia?

Nikki: West Virginia?

Salina: It's Kentucky and West Virginia.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: And we'll talk a little bit about how that factors into the story, but, yeah, it's actually across, like, a boundary stream that runs between those two areas.

Nikki: Okay, got it.

Salina: And please, as always, do let me know if you have questions.

Salina: I think I'm with historian Dean King, who likens those three events, to quote unquote, a bonfire lit from three different sides.

Salina: The conflagration grew out of these events, though they occurred over a span of decades and gained strength from their accumulation.

Nikki: Sounds like a dumpster fire lit from three sides.

Salina: I think that might be fair.

Salina: I'm actually reading a book right now by Dean King that is taking a bunch of different historical documents and trying to piece together what happened.

Salina: This is a ten year old book now, but I think it's one of the more in depth accounts to date.

Salina: So if things were tense before with these three things that also include a murder.

Nikki: Murder.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: They really heated up on a local election day in 1882.

Salina: So at that time, three of Randall McCoy's sons got into it with two of Devil Anne's Hatfield's brothers.

Salina: And I'm bringing those last names in again, so just to try and connect.

Salina: I know it's kind of weird to hear a story where you're hearing names, people that you're not really familiar with, so I can slow down if it's getting complicated.

Salina: But anyways, so the McCoy brothers wound up stabbing Ellison Hatfield 27 times, and then they shot him in the back.

Nikki: Holy moly.

Salina: In the account that I'm reading right now, it does feel worth mentioning that apparently election day, like, literally, folks didn't get out much and there wasn't much to do because these people do a lot of working.

Salina: So election days wound up being like, these very lecherous events where everyone was just, like, really wasted the whole same seas.

Salina: That's how I handle my elections for sure.

Salina: So they're all just totally toasted.

Salina: I'm not saying we all get wasted now and just murder each other, but.

Nikki: Anyways, we all get wasted and go to bed early.

Salina: Right?

Salina: Well, that's your 30s.

Salina: That's your thirty s.

Salina: And when you have things to do around town I do feel like a lot of this could like, if they would have just opened up Applebees, I think I feel like some lives would have been saved.

Salina: Anyways.

Salina: Just saying.

Salina: Skating rink.

Salina: Right?

Salina: But so the three McCoy sons, they are apprehended by the law, but the Hatfields get a hold of them and they bring them back to Hatfield territory.

Salina: They tied them up to some bushes, and they shot and killed all of them on the news of Ellison's death.

Salina: So what, three of Randall McCoy's sons are killed because one of Devil Anza's brothers is killed?

Salina: Okay, we're getting into the eye for an ice.

Nikki: I was going to say an eye for three eyes.

Salina: For three eyes.

Salina: Two eyes for six eyes.

Salina: Thank you for doing the math.

Salina: By 1887 someone check that math.

Nikki: Don't.

Salina: By 1887, the media gets wind of things, and they began reporting on the story, responsibly, of course.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: All culminating in what became known as the New Year's massacre.

Salina: In 1888, basically, a bunch of Hatfields led by Devil Anza's son ambush the McCoy's home.

Salina: Two of Randall's children are killed in a crossfire.

Salina: Now we're saying children.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: They were really children.

Salina: Children.

Nikki: A child is always a child.

Salina: That's true.

Salina: They're his children.

Salina: Though his wife was also badly injured.

Salina: And when I say badly injured.

Salina: I mean, like her skull is crushed, she survives, but it was bad.

Salina: So nine Hatfields are eventually rounded up by a bounty hunter and taken to jail.

Salina: The case goes all the way to the Supreme Court.

Salina: SCOTUS determines these men can be tried in Kentucky.

Salina: This comes back to your point.

Salina: They're in West Virginia, but they are allowed to take them back across the boundary for a trial or whatever.

Salina: Eight are sentenced to life in prison.

Salina: The 9th Cotton Top mounts believed to be the son of Ellison Hatfield.

Salina: This is the guy who was shot years ago at the election day, was publicly hanged in 1890.

Salina: He was known to be mentally challenged and many believe he was likely a scapegoat.

Salina: Let's talk about the length of the feud.

Salina: Much like the beginning of the feud, it is disputed.

Salina: There's lots of disputes here.

Salina: We can't come to agreements and that seems to be part of the problem.

Salina: But it seems that it lasted about 30 years from the mid 1860s to the late 1890s.

Salina: Get this, they finally the two families shook on it 80 years after the end.

Salina: And then finally in 2003, the feud officially ended when the family signed a truce in an event broadcast by the Saturday Early Show opportunistic.

Salina: So interesting.

Salina: So the body count estimates range from 20 to 100.

Salina: It's a lot of people, but here's where it really gets interesting.

Nikki: More so than just more interesting than death, murder?

Nikki: I think so lechery on election day?

Salina: Yes, because we have a nice southern angle coming about here.

Salina: So more interesting than timelines.

Salina: I don't want to say more interesting than body counts.

Salina: Obviously people's lives, very important.

Salina: But I do want to talk about the outside influences that exacerbated the feuding.

Salina: So I'm not sitting here saying that all of these people were stand up, excellent individuals.

Salina: But what I am saying is someone's fueling the fire around here.

Salina: So first, going back to your question from earlier, it's really important because where they are is really important.

Salina: Again, they live in central Appalachia with the Hatfields and McCoys living on opposite sides of what's known as the Tug Fork.

Salina: This is a border stream with most McCoys living on the Kentucky side and most Hatfields living on the West Virginia side.

Salina: While it's easy enough for people to lump this area into the south, it's really different.

Salina: It's not really the north, it's not really the south, particularly for the people who live there.

Salina: Their resources are also different.

Salina: There's access to waterways, there's a lot of timber and there's a lot of coal.

Salina: And eventually in a post Civil War era, while mostly this area is ignored completely, industry and investors with dollar signs in their eyes come a colon.

Salina: Families throughout the region were swindled out of thousands of acres of land and younger generations watched as their opportunities evaporated.

Salina: And this seeded a lot of anger, only adding fuel to the fire.

Salina: As communities and families saw what they had taken, they turned on one another in desperation of losing everything.

Salina: So while there was certainly violence, as historian Chuck Keaney pointed out, it's interesting how the US.

Salina: Accepted and glorified similar violence in places like the west, like the OK Corral and all of this.

Salina: They associated that with bringing progress while it was condemned in Appalachia and seen as impeding progress.

Salina: We can also probably think, at least in part, both our politicians and the media.

Salina: So local politicians were very busy lining their pockets with these industrial opportunities and too busy to protect the people in their own backyards.

Salina: They justified their actions by dispensing the narrative that these primitive people needed help and that they were bringing progress into these areas.

Salina: At the same time, the media descended, reporting only the juicier bits of the story.

Salina: In fact, many historians agree that the beginnings of the Hillbilly stereotype are firmly rooted in this sensationalized media coverage at the time, and it haunts this region and all of rural America to this day.

Salina: This is also at the time that yellow journalism is kicking up.

Salina: So they just really didn't care.

Salina: I'm just saying they just didn't give a darn.

Nikki: Feel like there's a theme?

Salina: Darn.

Salina: I know.

Salina: Well, I think also the other thing that sort of struck me as I was going through and learning all of this is how many of these themes are the same today, right?

Salina: An angry generation ready to burn it down, a media who is sometimes irresponsible, politicians who say one thing and do another.

Salina: It's like we're not really learning our lesson.

Nikki: And then me watching it all on TV while I eat my popcorn.

Salina: Hey, but you're not reading the paper.

Nikki: That's true.

Salina: So, like all cultures, the people of Appalachia are complex, diverse, and unique.

Salina: It's both inaccurate and unfair to categorize an entire region as cabin dwelling moonshine swilling shotgun toting stereotype.

Salina: Instead of seeking to label, we might try to understand, which, of course, is what we're interested in.

Salina: Here at Sweet Tea and TV, what I've shared today barely scratches the surface.

Salina: There are so many fascinating angles and themes to explore from this part of history.

Salina: If I piqued your interest at all, I want to plug a few of my sources, one being PBS's The Feud, which is part of their larger American Experience series, as well as the book I mentioned earlier by Dean King.

Salina: The name of that book is the Feud.

Salina: The Hatfields and the McCoys.

Salina: The True Story.

Salina: I'm about a third of the way through, and it's really fascinating, honestly, too, just because this country is such a different place.

Salina: You think it was different in 1989, you should have seen it in 1889.

Salina: It's just weird to think about it like, law enforcement is so different.

Salina: At that time, there wasn't state police.

Salina: You had a lot of local people who are like, sure, I'm a farmer, but I'm also a part time police officer.

Salina: Also not called a police officer, I think constable or something like that.

Nikki: I'm also one of the hat fields.

Salina: Arresting the McCoy, which also plays into this.

Nikki: I'm sure I am.

Nikki: Legend.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So that part is really interesting as well.

Salina: Anyways, all of this is a good reminder for everyone.

Salina: There are myths, there are legends, and then there's the truth.

Salina: And that is this week's extra sugar.


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