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Designing Women S5 E21 Extra Sugar - A Minimum Standard of Good Manners with Julia Sugarbaker

Updated: Mar 26

Julia’s hilariously unconventional parenting techniques had us cracking open our etiquette books and asking WWAVD? That is, what would the “arbiter of manners” and the “authority on etiquette” Amy Vanderbilt do? 


We’ll talk about it. But look: Ms. Vanderbilt has a fascinating story all her own – so we’re going to talk about her, too. We’ll wrap up ith a chat about modern etiquette because someone has got to teach people how to be polite in social media comments. Sheesh.


Some reads and watches:


Come on y’all, let’s get into it! 




 

Transcript

Salina: Hey, y'all.

Salina: Hey, Nikki.

Nikki: Hey, Salina.

Salina: Hi.

Salina: Excuse me.

Salina: Hey, Nikki.

Salina: Hey.

Nikki: Hey, Salina.

Salina: Hey, y'all.

Salina: And welcome to this week's edition of Extra Sugar.

Salina: Hi.

Salina: Or what I like to call the third extra sugar in a row.

Salina: And that's where things get really good.

Nikki: It's going to get dicey.

Salina: It's going to get so dicey.

Salina: Fine.

Salina: So Julia's unconventional parenting techniques had us cracking open our etiquette books and asking wwavd, that is.

Salina: What would Amy Vanderbilt do, you know, had she been in the room for SmackDown 91 with Julia and Randa?

Nikki: Burger SmackDown 91 I would love to go to Burger SmackDown.

Salina: I'll go to Burger SmackDown tonight.

Salina: I told you back on Monday, I'm having grilled chicken for dinner.

Salina: Here we are at Thursday still having grilled chicken.

Salina: Imagine that.

Salina: Longtime listeners may remember that we first talked about Amy Vanderbilt.

Salina: Nikki, you may remember that at one point in time we talked about Amy Vanderbilt because you bought the book.

Nikki: I bought it, but, you know, I don't know.

Salina: Well, you know, this is crazy because when we first talked about it, it was 2022 and it was part of crazy and it was part of our references in season three, episode 17, the Engagement.

Salina: So Amy Vanderbilt, who I'll affect.

Nikki: Wait, hold on.

Nikki: I have music for you.

Nikki: Are you never going to have a manners moment with Mrs.

Nikki: Smith?

Salina: Welcome to a manners moment with Mrs.

Salina: Smith.

Nikki: Well, you got to give me a better intro than that.

Nikki: Are you serious?

Nikki: Here's her music.

Nikki: Welcome to your manners moment with Mrs.

Nikki: Smith.

Nikki: The amount of pain I went through to record that for you, well, that's.

Salina: So nice that you did that.

Salina: I love it.

Nikki: I wanted to surprise you, so I was just going to play it at one point, but I couldn't find my natural fit.

Salina: Yeah, I didn't write around it.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: So here we are.

Nikki: But now you have it.

Salina: I love it.

Salina: It's wonderful.

Salina: You know, I love the manners moment music.

Salina: It makes me want to have a spot of tea.

Nikki: A spot of tea.

Salina: I'll stop.

Salina: All the way back in 2022 is when she first came up for us.

Salina: Amy Vanderbilt, I'm going to affectionately and for time refer to her as Av.

Nikki: That's what I now on.

Salina: Yes.

Salina: She was the american authority on etiquette.

Salina: Indeed, she literally wrote the book on it in 1952.

Salina: Amy Vanderbilt's complete book of etiquette.

Salina: This is the book you bought.

Salina: Fun fact.

Salina: That book was illustrated by a few different artists, including Andy Warhol.

Nikki: That is a fun fact.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: I was like, wow, what a world she lived in.

Salina: Anyways, so I spent some time with the book, and here's the plan.

Salina: We're going to talk about the dogs barking outside, which I'm loving, by the way.

Salina: Also, we're going to talk about children's etiquette, according to AV herself.

Salina: But first, we're going to talk about her, because she had a fascinating story all her own.

Salina: And then we're going to wrap with a chat about modern etiquette and just see how we're feeling.

Salina: Do a little quick check in good will, 2024.

Nikki: Etiquette's right up my alley, but it kind of is.

Salina: So, as always, please pop in if you have questions or thoughts.

Salina: Anything, really.

Nikki: Is she related?

Nikki: Selena's lost it.

Nikki: Is she related to Anderson Cooper, then?

Nikki: Because she's a Vanderbilt, we'll get into.

Nikki: You know, I had questions and thoughts.

Nikki: I popped in.

Salina: Oh, good.

Nikki: Well, shut down.

Salina: Yeah, well, it's actually one of the very first things I'm going to address.

Nikki: Excellent.

Salina: I don't know I have a clear answer.

Salina: Is the answer to your direct question right there.

Salina: But we'll get into it.

Salina: Also, I believe you took a cursory look at the part of the book we'll talk about today.

Salina: So you might want or might not want to pop in with thoughts.

Nikki: We'll see.

Nikki: Be new for both of us.

Nikki: There you go.

Salina: So, Amy Vanderbilt, AV, was born on July 22, one nine eight, in Staten Island, New York.

Salina: To your question, Nikki, whether she is truly a Vanderbilt is a little bit of a debate in some corners of the Internet.

Salina: But for what it's worth, the New York Times felt very comfortable referring to her as the first cousin of Commodore Cornelius Vanderbilt, the Vanderbilt, if you will, who amassed one of America's largest fortunes in both railroads and shipping.

Salina: For me, I'm like a six degrees of Biltmore kind of girl, so I need to relate it to that or I get confused.

Salina: So Cornelius is George Vanderbilt's grandfather, and George is the one who built the Biltmore.

Salina: You know, that tiny summer house outside.

Nikki: Of Asheville, also known as the american castle.

Salina: That's right.

Salina: Either way, we're not so much interested in her lineage as we are her legacy.

Salina: Except for Nikki.

Salina: Nikki's very interested, very interested in whether.

Nikki: She'S related to Anderson Cooper.

Salina: Well, if she really is indeed the first cousin, then she is.

Salina: She has to be direct lineage.

Salina: But, yes, she is somewhere in the.

Salina: Maybe.

Salina: I think everybody wants her to be, like, a down lineage.

Salina: And, of course, if she's a cousin, she wouldn't be down lineage of Cornelius Vanderbilt.

Nikki: This is the Robert Duvall Robert E.

Nikki: Lee thing all over.

Salina: And there's, like, people who've done the family trees, but there was, like a lot of talking and not a lot of sense.

Nikki: Okay?

Salina: I finally was like, screw it.

Nikki: 20 minutes in.

Nikki: That's my new limit.

Nikki: That's my new limit.

Salina: That's my etiquette from my brain.

Salina: And I think that I'm going New York Times.

Nikki: Fair enough.

Salina: There's that.

Salina: But her legacy is etiquette, and so that's what we really want to focus on today.

Salina: Or as New York Times put it, quote, she was the nation's principal authority on the subject, the successor to Emily Post and the abbiter of manners.

Salina: And in an increasingly classless society.

Salina: Can you see New York Times saying that today in an increasingly classless society?

Nikki: I can.

Nikki: Yeah, in fact, I can.

Salina: But she was more than that.

Nikki: But they wouldn't say increasingly.

Nikki: They would say long ago made classless.

Nikki: It's not increasingly anymore.

Salina: They would feel like that was, like, rude.

Salina: While we're talking about manas.

Salina: Anyways, she wasn't just those things, okay?

Salina: She was more than that.

Salina: First and foremost, she was a writer, a journalist, and she actually landed her first reporting job at age 16 as a feature writer for the Staten Island advance.

Salina: And during the 1930s, she was a columnist for the International news Service.

Salina: This is an old newswire founded by William Randolph Hearst.

Salina: So think like ap, but not ap.

Salina: From 1954 to 1968, her column would publish in more than 100 newspapers around the world with an audience of more than 40 million.

Salina: She has written several books, and her writing appeared everywhere, the New Yorker, Better Homes and Gardens, McCall's this Week, American Home, Colliers.

Salina: And it would take her four years to write her most enduring work, the nearly 700 page complete Guide to Etiquette, a book that she would first revise in 1962, ten years after its first publication, and then again in 1972.

Salina: And I think it was received pretty differently at each one of those time periods.

Salina: If you just think about what's going on in the world, I don't think that people are ready to talk about etiquette by the time we get around to 1972.

Salina: And I read a very facetious New York Times article when that last iteration.

Nikki: Came out, dang New York Times, man.

Salina: She was in advertising, PR, had her own TV show, radio show, consulted for the State Department, lectured, traveled.

Salina: She kind of did it all.

Salina: She was moried.

Salina: You know how it goes.

Salina: Moripovich.

Salina: She was married four times.

Salina: She was divorced in 1920.

Salina: 919 30, 519 45.

Salina: And 1968 I could sit here and tell you there was a lot going on in the world at each one of those time periods.

Salina: I'm like, the market crashed right in the middle of the Great Depression.

Salina: World War II had just ended in 1968 is arguably one of the biggest years for upheaval in the country's entire history.

Salina: So I'm just saying.

Salina: She also had four sons, so she was a mom as well.

Salina: Sadly, Amy Vanderbilt would die under unclear circumstances.

Salina: On December 20, 774, she either jumped or fell from a second story window of her home at 438 East 87th Street.

Salina: I do need to tell you, as someone who often will stock homes.

Salina: Not stock home, stock stock homes.

Salina: Homes is in real estate.

Nikki: I google a lot.

Salina: Yes.

Salina: Her house hasn't been on the market since 2000.

Salina: This sucker is 4800 sqft in bikes.

Nikki: Who lives there?

Salina: I don't know, but it's worth $7.6 million.

Nikki: Bet it's Anderson Cooper.

Salina: I bet you you can probably figure it out.

Nikki: Get back with us.

Salina: Tell us in your spare time.

Nikki: You're going to have to repeat that address for me.

Nikki: I'll handle it.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: I believe in you.

Nikki: Leave it with me.

Salina: When you hear a description like arbiter of manners, I think it's easy to then picture Betty Crocker vacuuming in heels and pearls or something, but I don't think that was av.

Salina: From the pieces I'm putting together, she was an independent working woman with her own mind who took her own last name with her through all of her marriages.

Salina: She was a mover, a shaker, and a mold breaker.

Salina: It's been said that for her, etiquette wasn't about rules.

Salina: It was about kindness among fellow humans, and that's a very important distinction in my book.

Salina: I would also argue that in today's world, we are sorely missing both, and you can really fill it.

Salina: So what did the arbiter of manners have to say about children's etiquette?

Salina: Nikki, stop looking up the house.

Nikki: I'm looking up the arbiter of manners.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: I know you are.

Salina: I went through the book and pulled different sections that felt comparable to the episodes and scenes with Randa and Julia.

Salina: Let's start with the most obvious table manners, which AV addresses by posing questions such as, must a child finish his food?

Salina: No man.

Salina: Believe it or not, even in 1952, she warned off the clean your plate mentality as physically and emotionally harmful, an arbitrary rule that interfered with our built in ability to know when we're hungry and full.

Salina: You were even talking earlier today about how your kids have such a good measure of their own hunger?

Nikki: Yeah, I think we really did a disservice to kids, making them feel guilty for not finishing their plates.

Salina: I think perhaps that could cause a problem or two.

Salina: Should a child choose his own food?

Salina: Sure.

Salina: They're learning, so let them.

Salina: And without comment.

Salina: It will teach them to self regulate and emulate.

Salina: Should children be seen and not heard?

Salina: Well, of course not.

Salina: The dinner table is a place where the art of conversation should be cultivated.

Salina: You can always remove them from the table if a meltdown ensues.

Salina: It will make everyone, including them, more comfortable.

Salina: And so, Nikki, where do you think AV stood on the headlocks and hamburger situations?

Nikki: I think she was for the hamburgers.

Nikki: Probably a little bit against the headlocks, I would imagine.

Salina: Maybe not with no one around.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: Etiquette and manners only matter when someone's looking.

Salina: All right, if a tray tables in the woods.

Nikki: If someone lives in the Miss vendor built house in New York City, but.

Salina: No one knows who it is.

Salina: Does anyone live there at.

Nikki: Oh.

Salina: Also relevant, a section on teaching children to behave.

Salina: She talks about consistency in rules and bedtime, but I think most relevant is what AV has to say about the use of threats.

Salina: Quote, never make a threat to a child which you don't intend to or can't keep if the infraction does occur.

Salina: So what I will say, I don't think anyone can accuse Julia of not making good on the threat, for sure.

Nikki: So far, nothing you have.

Nikki: I wonder if I follow Amy Vanderbilt's code from the 1950s, because everything you've said so far aligns with my parenting.

Nikki: I think a lot of parents make threats they don't keep, and that leads to bad behavior, because if there's no outcome, they're going to do the same thing next time, which is what happened to poor Randa, right?

Nikki: Nobody ever followed through on their threats.

Salina: Right?

Salina: Yeah, I think, actually, this is my biggest reaction to this whole piece on children is.

Salina: I mean, I was pleasantly surprised, but I did not expect to find something so progressively mannered.

Salina: It's like the one with the art that I did a couple of weeks ago.

Salina: I was expecting to just make fun of some weird art, and I got in there, and I was like, man, there's some really cool pieces in here.

Salina: Maybe I need to stop being such a judgmental b*******.

Salina: And in this case, I was like, wow.

Salina: I mean, I did just not expect someone in this time period to not adhere to seen and not heard, to not melmen men.

Salina: Yeah, I expected to see like this.

Salina: Spare the rod and spoil the child mentality, the governess and so finish your plate and all of that nonsense.

Salina: And those things just weren't there.

Salina: One of the reasons I think it's surprising for me is because I was born 33 years after this book came out, which seems really too close to 1952, now that I said it out loud.

Salina: And I was told to finish my plate and my mouth was rinsed out with soap.

Salina: So at least on one occasion that I can remember.

Salina: And I was really p***** off because all I said was.

Salina: But.

Nikki: So she didn't say anything about whoopings with a belt?

Nikki: No.

Nikki: And she didn't say anything about forcing your kid to eat in the bathroom if they ate with their mouth open at the dinner table.

Salina: Is that something that happened to you?

Nikki: That is correct.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: See?

Nikki: That's correct.

Salina: Look at our.

Nikki: I ate dinner on the toilet one time because I ate with my mouth open.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I've got some thoughts on the toilet.

Nikki: That's why I'm.

Salina: Broken seat or closed seat.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: I was forced to use the bathroom while I ate.

Nikki: No.

Nikki: Sat on a closed seat.

Nikki: I think it was really up to me where I sat in there.

Nikki: I don't think the toilet wasn't the important part.

Nikki: It was just the most.

Nikki: And it's not seat like part.

Nikki: It was the most seat like, they didn't give me a stool.

Salina: Stool.

Nikki: You said it.

Salina: You said it.

Salina: I did want to point out one thing that I read in here that I was incredibly surprised by.

Salina: This is, like, things that you should do in public, not do in public.

Salina: And it says you shouldn't swear in a way that is generally considered offensive, though most children need a list of acceptable swear words with which they can blow off steam.

Salina: Perhaps one list for use in the parents presence if absolutely necessary, and another list for away from home, where there is likely to be more rigidity in the matter.

Salina: That literally blew my mind also, that is how me and my mom operated.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: I was allowed to cuss at home once I reached a certain age, four.

Nikki: When I was three and a half.

Salina: It was slightly older than four.

Nikki: Say the f word till six.

Salina: But, you know, it's so funny to me because I just like swearing.

Salina: Was so liberal minded to do something like that back in the.

Salina: See that here in 1952.

Nikki: What, to blow off steam?

Salina: To blow off steam.

Nikki: Maybe etiquette's not as uptight as we think it is.

Salina: No, it's just we're uptight.

Nikki: You know what it is?

Nikki: It's knowing context and acting appropriately within context is all etiquette is.

Nikki: Some scenarios are just not appropriate for certain types of behavior.

Salina: I think that is an excellent point.

Nikki: Thank you.

Salina: And in the world's worst transition, and finally wrap up for the day, 18 hours later, I thought that we could briefly chat about modern etiquette.

Nikki: Let's.

Salina: I'm like, the end.

Nikki: Haven't we already know when to quit?

Salina: But did you know in 2002, the 50th anniversary of Amy Vanderbilt's complete book of etiquette, the book got a modern day update and overhaul, courtesy of Nancy Tuckerman and Nancy Dunnon.

Nikki: Oh, thank God.

Nikki: The Nancy's.

Nikki: Nancy's, if you will.

Nikki: Who?

Nikki: Nancy etiquettes.

Nikki: The etiquette.

Nikki: Nancy's.

Salina: So Tuckerman, who passed in 2018, was a White House social secretary during the Kennedy administration, and then she remained the personal secretary to Jackie Kennedy, I think, until Jackie Kennedy passed.

Nikki: I bet she was interesting.

Salina: I think so, too.

Salina: Dunnan is a financial advisor, I believe.

Salina: Still, maybe she's a book author and a reporter etiquette enthusiast right now.

Salina: Brace for the most.

Salina: 2002 Senate embraced salon.com, called the revised book the Death of Etiquette.

Nikki: It's just@salon.com.

Nikki: I was really braced for that.

Nikki: Yes, that's a real Debbie downer.

Salina: We'll link to it.

Salina: Or was it a Nancy upper?

Salina: We'll link to it.

Salina: But the quickest summary is from the very end.

Salina: Etiquette isn't about personal health, physical fitness, or gift wrapping.

Salina: By defining everything as etiquette, Tuckerman and Dunnon wind up saying nothing.

Salina: They ought to know better.

Salina: So the reason I brought this up is because I was thinking, if you and I were to overhaul AV's book today, it's a little late in the day for that, but today should have started earlier.

Nikki: Relevant today, 24 in the next 15 years.

Salina: What would we like to see on that list?

Nikki: You know what's wild, actually?

Nikki: So I had.

Salina: You're writing a book.

Nikki: I have started an etiquette book.

Nikki: No, I had thumbed through that book a couple of times just when I bought it.

Nikki: I don't think I even remembered why I bought it when I bought it.

Salina: New version?

Nikki: No, sorry.

Nikki: This the old one.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: And I thumbed through it, and I remembered seeing what you said today, which is that it's fairly progressive, so I think there would need to be.

Nikki: So most of it.

Nikki: I probably really wouldn't change that much.

Nikki: I do think there should be a section on texting.

Salina: It is literally the first thing on my list.

Salina: Emailing that is the second thing on my list, particularly email in a business setting.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Can we teach people of a certain generation how to email?

Nikki: Like certain punctuation that doesn't need to.

Salina: Exist in emails or how to not come off as aggressive?

Nikki: I accidentally sent an email last week and not so accidentally, all in caps because I was having a panic moment.

Nikki: So it happens.

Nikki: I legitimately felt that, though, so I didn't accidentally come off aggressive.

Nikki: I really felt aggressive that day.

Nikki: So, yeah.

Nikki: Texting and emailing, Zoom and other conference video situations.

Nikki: Tell me more about that.

Nikki: What do you mean?

Salina: I would like everyone to find the mute button.

Salina: Correct?

Salina: I don't know if that's etiquette, but can everyone just find it?

Nikki: Just find it, know where it is, get comfortable with it, and just turn it on?

Nikki: I turn it on before every call that starts, I automatically push the mute button.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: The other thing is like door ringing.

Salina: Tell me more.

Nikki: Not doing it.

Nikki: We all just generally agree in 2024 not to go to each other's stores.

Salina: Just don't visit, just don't come.

Salina: Nikki's etiquette book will be like no.

Nikki: Book at all because how to avoid people and other fine lessons of etiquette.

Salina: How to avoid people and not influence them, or whatever the update of that book will be.

Nikki: I actually don't know.

Nikki: The other thing I think that's interesting is conversation etiquette, and I find I struggle with this a little bit sometimes.

Nikki: Maybe this is old fashioned, but going back to that rule of certain topics you just don't discuss in casual conversation, we go back to that thing of, like, things I don't, religion, things I don't know about.

Nikki: You can't hurt my perception of you, so why don't you keep that stuff at home?

Nikki: I do feel like there's a look.

Salina: At you in the face.

Nikki: Next time we can work together kindly.

Nikki: I do feel like there's some relevance to that.

Nikki: And I do feel like in modern day, that needs to be an agreed upon social convention that we used to have.

Nikki: We fell away from it with probably the 2016 election or whatever, but we're back to it now.

Nikki: Let's get back to that.

Nikki: I'm uncomfortable now.

Nikki: I'm ready to be back to being a little more comfortable in social settings.

Salina: That's fair.

Salina: Maybe there should be parameters for the conversation.

Salina: If you want to have that kind of conversation, it's fine.

Nikki: Maybe we have some hand signals.

Salina: Is it the middle finger?

Nikki: Like a one for.

Nikki: Yes, a middle finger for.

Nikki: You're offending me.

Salina: That's a really good way to do that.

Salina: I think the social media one is really imperative.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: People comment and say mean things, and it's just so unnecessary.

Salina: Everybody needs to feel smart.

Nikki: Yes.

Nikki: And I've had moments like that myself where I read something and I'm like, oh, my God, why are you so dumb?

Nikki: And I want to correct it, but then I realize it's not the way to do it.

Nikki: That's not going to resonate with someone.

Nikki: I do feel like there needs to be, again, like, a social contract that, and this is nothing new, but if I wouldn't say it to your face, Selena, then I would not post it to your social media.

Nikki: Handle well.

Salina: And we get some stuff on ours.

Salina: We did something on southern sandwiches or whatever, and literally someone posted underneath.

Salina: Yuck.

Salina: And I was just like, why?

Nikki: Why would you do that?

Salina: I have to exercise my etiquette because I can tell you I've got four letter words coming to mind, and I'm, like, trying to control myself.

Salina: And it's just like, why did you feel the need to do that?

Salina: Or why do you feel the need to correct my pronunciation?

Salina: Or do you just go around?

Salina: Is that how you.

Salina: I did enjoy this one, though.

Salina: Someone corrected my pronunciation on something, and I accidentally clicked on their profile, and it said, a self proclaimed know it all.

Salina: And I was like, no crap.

Salina: Well, at least.

Salina: At least they know who self aware.

Salina: Yeah, that's usually a problem.

Salina: Work on it.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: For sure.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: You don't have to be that way.

Salina: I do have a couple more that I would add to our please.

Salina: Vaping and other forms of ecigarettes.

Salina: I think we need some etiquette around that.

Salina: I understand they don't have the same smell as a cigarette, but in general, don't vape inside.

Salina: There's just something that I find so off putting about that.

Salina: And I am a former smoker, and it's like, just don't do that.

Salina: I don't want to see you vaping in the movie theater.

Salina: It's a scent.

Salina: It's a scent.

Nikki: In general, I think we've all agreed we're not pumping scents into places where there's a lot of people.

Nikki: Because people are allergic.

Salina: Yeah, people are sensitive.

Nikki: I also don't want to die early because of your bad habits.

Nikki: I like that one.

Nikki: I co sign that one.

Salina: I would also just say, in general, this is going to be my less than 20 seconds on vaping.

Salina: If you are pulling something into your lungs and that something is not oxygen, you're fooling yourself, guys.

Nikki: For sure.

Nikki: It can't be good.

Salina: Okay, that's just my little public.

Salina: I'm with you for today.

Salina: Feels like one.

Salina: Today would finally be more inclusive of different types of couples.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I didn't see a lot of that.

Salina: That makes sense for 1952.

Salina: I understand.

Salina: That wasn't, like, the mode.

Salina: That wasn't something that was out and in the open.

Salina: Don't agree with that.

Salina: But we're in a different place now, and so let's be more inclusive in that.

Nikki: I'm so curious about that because I do sometimes find myself.

Nikki: I get very uppity about etiquette when it comes to mailing.

Nikki: Things like formal things like wedding invitations, baby announcements, Christmas cards are always an annual fun exercise for me because I'm so used to Mr.

Nikki: And Mrs.

Nikki: Or doctor and Mrs.

Nikki: Or doctor and Mr.

Nikki: Depending on the circumstance, like the basic, normal addresses.

Nikki: And now I'm like, do I just put their first name?

Nikki: Is that too informal?

Nikki: I don't know.

Nikki: And then, yeah, if you have a couple that's different, I find myself every year having this struggle.

Nikki: Yeah, that would be nice.

Salina: I thought you were going to go a different direction with this, so I'm going to bring it up and I hope it's okay.

Nikki: We'll see.

Salina: Offline.

Salina: You were telling me that you were considering putting your kids in some kind of etiquette.

Nikki: Oh, I have, yeah.

Salina: And one thing that you said that I thought was really great, that I feel like comes around to the same side thing is, like, making sure that not just your daughter but your son knows how to write thank you cards, because it's not actually a woman's job.

Nikki: Etiquette's for everybody.

Salina: Everyone should be thankful, and everyone should be thoughtful, and maybe we would have a chance in this world.

Nikki: Yeah, I think that's very interesting.

Nikki: And I think I would love some official rules of the road on what is an appropriate level of thankfulness and thoughtfulness.

Nikki: This is the other part of the conversation you and I were having where I feel like if you don't send a thank you note, like an actual card in the mail, it doesn't feel as official.

Nikki: But I still think, like, a quick text message to say thank you feels appropriate in some circumstances.

Nikki: And so I would love to know what those circumstances are.

Nikki: And I would also love to your point men to know those circumstances as well, because they feel like if you mention it on a conference call, that's enough.

Nikki: But if someone came to your wedding and brought you a gift, mentioning it on a conference call is not enough.

Nikki: You need to actually sit down and write them something right but I need that in writing somewhere so I can point back to it.

Salina: And it's not just for the fact of being kind.

Salina: I think it's just good for yourself to just really sit down and consider what someone else has done for you.

Nikki: Tit for tat in.

Nikki: Know they spent some time on you.

Nikki: Now you owe them some time.

Salina: That's right.

Nikki: That's etiquette.

Salina: My last one was dating app etiquette.

Salina: Oh, I don't know, Jack.

Salina: Whatever about dating apps, really.

Salina: Except for when I accidentally had to get on one for work a couple of years ago.

Salina: Got a couple offers.

Nikki: Immediately.

Nikki: Did you hear this, Casey?

Nikki: She still got it.

Salina: I called him, like, immediately, and I was like, I just need you to be very clear that I accidentally hooked some and I didn't mean to.

Nikki: Oh, no.

Salina: It was for work.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: Professional I would rather do.

Salina: I probably will never date again.

Salina: Let's be very clear.

Salina: Because I won't get on a dating.

Nikki: App if I end up on my own.

Salina: Stress for me.

Nikki: If I end up on my own in any sort of way, I'll be on my own.

Nikki: We'll be spinsters together.

Salina: I'll just be right here as the darkness closes in on us.

Salina: This is a really nice extra touch.

Salina: Anyways.

Salina: Dating app etiquette feels like in there be like a whole thing just on d*** pics.

Nikki: I think it's straddling the lines of.

Salina: It'S not good manners, Nikki, unless they request it.

Nikki: There's something to consent.

Nikki: There's, like, consent involved in that, too.

Nikki: And just because it's digital doesn't mean the consent is implicit.

Salina: Doesn't mean there's a get down.

Nikki: Digital, digital get down.

Nikki: You and me.

Nikki: I think it's crossing lines between social media and dating apps and online.

Nikki: But when you sell things online, I think there should also be an etiquette to that in how you approach someone.

Nikki: Like in trying to buy their product online.

Nikki: I sell a lot of things online.

Nikki: I am very, like, I want to encourage reuse of things, especially if it's something I only lightly used.

Nikki: I also think things still have value, and so if I can get a little money for it, you get it for a discount.

Nikki: I get a little money, goes toward whatever the next thing is.

Nikki: I'm also very cheap.

Nikki: And so this is all part and parcel to being cheap anyway.

Nikki: Point is, when I.

Salina: Cheap is good for the environment.

Nikki: I think it is when I list something online, if you respond to me immediately and say, would you take $2?

Nikki: That's rude.

Nikki: One.

Nikki: It's also really freaking obnoxious, but it's just really rude.

Nikki: There should be some etiquette around how you approach an online seller.

Salina: I like that.

Nikki: Thank you.

Nikki: I've thought a lot about it.

Salina: The sweet tea and TV commenting etiquette on all things.

Salina: All things, not just social media.

Nikki: Correct.

Salina: Maybe even reviews.

Nikki: Accurate.

Salina: For podcasts.

Nikki: Correct.

Salina: Not just everything that forms in your, again, is something that needs to come out.

Salina: Think about the fact there's people behind it.

Salina: The way we talk about celebrities.

Salina: I think that also needs some work.

Nikki: Correct.

Nikki: I think that's true.

Salina: They are humans.

Nikki: They're humans.

Nikki: I think it just comes back to that golden rule of, like, if you don't have something nice to say, just don't say it.

Nikki: I don't think that's always true because I think informed criticism and considerate criticism is useful and there's a place for it.

Nikki: But you're still going to say that in a nice way, a kind way.

Salina: That'S different than, like, you're ugly than.

Nikki: Yuck.

Nikki: Yeah, you're ugly.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: What you do is stupid.

Nikki: What happened to her?

Salina: Why you exist?

Nikki: Why are your feet so big?

Nikki: Right?

Nikki: I bet your baby toenail is so big you actually have to paint it, which is what someone said to me in high school.

Salina: Can I tell you about one more comment that we got on one of our videos?

Salina: Someone said, do these people not realize that when they're talking over the food like that, they're spitting all over?

Salina: And I was like, hey, did you.

Nikki: Respond back, do these people not realize I'm eating this food?

Salina: I was like, I'm even dumb.

Salina: Voiceover.

Nikki: Did you really say that?

Salina: Weeks later and they deleted their comments.

Nikki: Wow, good for you.

Salina: I was just like, can you just make it make sense?

Nikki: Just shut up.

Nikki: That's what I want to say.

Salina: Just shut up.

Salina: And I think you just shut up and don't ring my doorbell.

Nikki: Don't ring my doorbell.

Nikki: And other fine etiquette rules of 2024.

Salina: Oh, my gosh.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Is there anything else you want to share?

Salina: Because I don't want to cut you off at the knee.

Nikki: Probably cut me off at the ankle.

Nikki: That's where I prefer.

Salina: This is good.

Salina: Etiquette is at the ankle.

Salina: All right.

Salina: So Amy Vanderbilt once said, only a great fool or a great genius is likely to flout all social grace with impunity, and neither one doing so makes the most comfortable companion.

Salina: And if that's not an argument for etiquette, why, Nikki, I don't know what is.

Salina: You know the drill.

Salina: DM us email us, contact us from the website.

Salina: Find us all over the socials.

Salina: Never ring Nikki's doorbell.

Salina: And that's this week's extra shoko.


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