S8 E1 Extra Sugar - Golden Girls: What Golden Girls Taught Us About Aging Women in Hollywood

Covering Golden Girls got us thinking about what a feat it was to get four women – let alone those over the age of 50 – in leading roles on TV in the 1980s. We decided it was time for a temperature check: how is Hollywood doing all these years on? What has and hasn’t changed since these iconic women left the screen 30+ years ago? What did Golden Girls get right at the time and where did they miss the mark? You’ll be utterly shocked to learn, well, it’s complicated. 

Reads:

• How “The Golden Girls” Celebrated—and Distorted—Old Age | The New Yorker 

• Beyond the Stereotypes: The Reality of Aging Women in Films page - Geena Davis Institute 

• Boxed In: Women On Screen and Behind the Scenes on Broadcast and Streaming Television in 2023-24 

• Cannonball with Wesley Morris

• Kamala Harris’ hidden foe: pervasive bias against powerful middle-aged women - Berkeley News 

• Older Women Are Finally Being Represented In Hollywood 

• Women Over 40 Are Being Excluded from Hollywood - Ms. Magazine

And, as always, thank you for being a friend!

Or listen on Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music.

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Transcript

Salina: Foreign. Hey, y'all.

Salina: And welcome to our inaugural extra sugar. Nikki, say, hey, let the people know you're alive. I'm here. I send help. Okay, great. Perfect. Good. Yes. Add in the laughter.

Nikki: Well, I couldn't blink twice because then they couldn't see me, so.

Salina: Oh, okay. Well, I have a really weird announcement for the top, which is I have some butternut squash in the oven, and if the timer goes off, guys, I'm just gonna have to say, oh, please. And Nikki will thank me later for some awkward cut that she has to make. But here we are. what can I say? We're in our golden era. And when you're in your golden era, you eat squash.

Nikki: Is that what it is?

Salina: I don't know. What I will say is that covering Golden Girls isn't just a hoot and a holler. It's a pleasure and an honor. It is a golden opportunity, if you will, to discuss other things. Much like in our Designing Women days, if these two sets of women, that is Designing Women and Golden Girls, have anything in common, it's that they sometimes use humor to get to the heart of topics and age old issues. And old age issues.

Extra Sugar focuses on the representation of aging women in Hollywood

So that's a good enough segue for me to get to today's Extra Sugar, which is all about the representation of aging women in Hollywood. Sound okay?

Nikki: Sounds great.

Salina: It sounds like I didn't have to make this extra sugar, which sounds awesome.

Nikki: Fantastic.

Salina: I also think that this is the perfect way to honor the groundbreaking way that Golden Girls pulled this representation forward. And by that, I mean women who are not 25. Yeah. Okay, so it's also why. Why through this segment, we'll mostly focus on Those who are 50, plus some things might dip a little younger. Brace yourself, Nikki. Brace yourself. We are tiptoeing ever and ever closer. Two different age brackets.

Nikki: All I heard you say is, I'm younger, so I like.

Salina: I like the way you interpret things. So this is my plan for today. We'll talk about some numbers, because nothing's more fun than numbers.

Nikki: As long as I don't have to add them. That's right.

Salina: And if I do, ruh row. But hopefully that will help frame up where things currently stand. We're going to touch on what the goal Golden Girls got right when it came to aging. and maybe not what they got wrong, per se, but what they played into culturally. That's still ongoing. And then I would love to chat about how things have or haven't changed. Okay, Nikki, along the way, just let me know if there's anything you want to pause on or go back to. I can only see your eyeballs right now. So send help. She can only see my eyeballs. Ah. We're gonna make it through this.

Nikki: We're gonna make.

Salina: It's the first extra sugar. We're getting back in the saddle. It's fine, it's fine. It's so good.

Let's say three TV shows about women over 50. Not men, not couples

I, want to do a little exercise though, before I jump into the number.

Nikki: Like touching toes and whatnot.

Salina: As long as we're just touching toes. I didn't know where that was going, to be honest. It's only the first extra sugar. Nikki, just slow down. Let's squash first. Okay.

Nikki: Squash something.

Salina: Okay. Can you name off the top of your head? Let's say three TV shows about women over 50. Not Golden Girls. That's cheating. Here's your parameters. They should primarily focus on women characters. Not men, not couples and not ensembles, just older women.

Nikki: Oh, boy.

Salina: I also. I also did this exercise on my own.

Nikki: Oh, okay.

Salina: I'll just tell you, it's not great.

Nikki: Hot in Cleveland doesn't count because that's an ensemble.

Salina: Well, an ensemble if it's men in the ensemble.

Nikki: Oh, okay.

Salina: So absolutely. Hot in Cleveland.

Nikki: Hot in Cleveland. Betty White again. I don't remember how old they were in Cougar Town.

Salina: Not the name of it. Does that count? More like 30s, 40s.

Nikki: Oh, okay.

Salina: So no.

Nikki: Yeah, that's what I got.

Salina: But it is Women in Cleveland. It's also more of an ensemble. There's like a lot of men in it too. okay. Not that like a man can't be featured, but he should not be the focus. You know what I'm saying? Okay, yeah, that's what I got. Okay. So, I would have said Golden Girls. I just want to say that.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know, if someone hadn't said you couldn't. That someone.

Nikki: Someone was you.

Salina: I know. Well, I'm the worst.

Nikki: You are well established.

Salina: So I came up with Grace and Frankie.

Nikki: Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

Salina: And I also came up with. And just like that.

Nikki: Oh, okay.

Salina: I want to be very clear. It's not a lot.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So between us, we named three shows.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: And the one that we're currently covering, which makes four, we are going back then to 1985. 40 years, three shows, not great. So for anyone out there who might have some thoughts rolling through their head and they want to say, for instance, Veep. I'm just going to say Veep is an ensemble show that very much so features on its male characters just as much. despite Julia Dreyfuss being in that age bracket. I would look like her right now if I could. Let me just.

Nikki: Yeah, it's also, I don't think that shows really about aging and like, life at that age. More about politics. Yeah, yeah. Doesn't, count.

Salina: Well, it doesn't have to be about aging. It does, but. Okay. then I also had a, Murder She Wrote. I thought maybe people would say she wrote.

Nikki: I've never heard it said that way.

Salina: I don't know I've ever said that she wrote. but Angela Lansbury is just like. I don't know it. We. You could technically count it, but I was like, thinking back to the show, and she's very much so working with different male characters on a regular.

Nikki: A much more compelling narrative. If you don't count it.

Salina: It's much more.

Nikki: It fits with your extra sugar better.

Salina: Thank you. Thank you, Nikki.

Nikki: You're welcome.

How about three movies, same parameters. Ensembles over 50 must count

Salina: So then I'm going to do the same exercise this time. How about three movies, same parameters. So it can't be couples, it can't be men and women. Ensembles over the age of 50. Go.

Nikki: Wait, three movies?

Salina: Yes, about.

Nikki: Oh, okay. See? Yeah. Oh, I just have so many going.

Salina: Through my head right now. I'll vamp for you.

Nikki: It's a filtering vamp. Just, you know, pulling them.

Salina: Oh, you're categorizing them. Nikki's over here. Whiteboard. Okay, so I did think of three.

Nikki: Okay, go ahead.

Salina: Does that mean you. You don't have one? Wait, that I go on the tip of your tongue?

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Okay, let's see if I say it. 80 for Brady. This is 2023 with. Sally Field, Rita Moreno, and Lily Tomlin. This one I only know of because of not 80 for Brady, but the next one I'm about to say because of the Cheryl Lee Ralph sidebar that we did, in season seven. So the Fabulous Four. This is a movie that she starred with alongside Bette Midler, Susan Sarandon and Megan Mulally. And then Calendar Girls was actually the very first one I thought of. This movie's now like 22 years old, but this starred Dame Helen Mirren and Dame Julie Waters. So, did I name any that you were thinking of?

Nikki: The, what was the first one? You said 80 for Brady. 80 for Brady. That's the one I was thinking of.

Salina: Oh, okay.

Nikki: I thought there was also, like, a girls trip, but it might be 80s. 80 for Brady. That I was thinking. They go on a trip. Yeah.

Salina: There was a girls trip, but that's more like Jada Pinkett Smith. Yeah, like, you know. Well, she is in her 50s, but I think the rest of the cast might be in their 40s, so not a lot. Yeah, not a lot. Not a lot.

Nikki: Well, for men, to be fair, we only got grumpy old men and grumpier old men.

Salina: Yeah. Those are bangers, though.

Nikki: Those are great movies.

Salina: Yeah. Again, some of you at home might be thinking about Something's Got to Give, but that was really as much a Jack Nicholson movie. Or you might be thinking it's Complicated. Also, again, Meryl Streep. but I would argue that belongs to Alec Baldwin. I don't know why I said again, Meryl Streep. Because she does not feature in Something's Gotta Give. Again. First, extra sugar. I'm gonna ask for multiple passes. Okay. or you might be thinking the Best Exotic Marigold Hotel. Wonderful. But that's a 50 plus ensemble, so that also doesn't count. So if anyone is screaming obvious answers at me, you know where to find us. Please be kind. Thank you. Love you.

A new study looks at how the media portrays older adults in movies

And then now let's jump into those numbers, shall we? Anyways, my whole point being there, it's not great. There's not a lot being featured all these years on. So let's start with the movies and what the numbers look like there. So in 2020, the Geena Davis Institute issued the first global study that looked at how the media portrays older adults with a special focus on women. 50 plus. So that report, for the record, is called the Frail, Frumpy and Forgotten A Report on the Movie Roles of Women of Age. Inter Joke. Intro Joke. Inter Joke in. But I'm too tired to make any actual jokes there. But that's the name of the report, the study.

Nikki: That's a fantastic title.

Salina: It is really good. it's also how I wake up feeling a lot. Just frail from being forgotten. But that's okay. The study analyzed top grossing films of 2019 in Germany, France, here and in the UK to better understand the prevalence of ageism and of stereotyping of older adults in the media. Some highlights, female characters aged 50 plus made up only a quarter of characters over 50. And more than a quarter of movies featured no female characters over the age of 50. A whopping 0% of women this age were leads in movies. Now, again, this is in 2019. Doesn't mean it had never happened, but that is a slice of time. Older women in films were four times more likely to be portrayed as senile. Than older men. And they are also more frequently shown as physically unattractive and depicted in roles that emphasize their physical frailty. Only one in four films passed what's known as the ageless test, which requires that films feature at least one female character over 50 who is essential to the plot and that they are portrayed without reducing them to ageist stereotypes. So again, only 1 in 4. I tried to keep it to 50 plus, but like I said, sometimes we're going to have to drop a little lower in age by, dropping down to age 45. It reveals a similar trend. So this is the USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative.

Nikki: Say that five times fast.

Salina: This is what I'm saying. But in 2023, only three movies featured a woman 45 years of age or older in leading roles, and that is versus 32 movies with leading men of the same age. 3,32. 3,32. The article goes on to argue this was actually in a Ms. Magazine article where I found this study. they go on to argue this is because there aren't enough women behind the cameras or in leadership roles generally. And so data seem to support that. According to one study from San Diego State University center for the Study of Women in Television and Film, in films with exclusively male directors and or writers, females made up, 19% of protagonists versus 57% in films with at least one woman director and or writer. So 19% of protagonists. 57% of protagonists. Another report from the university found only 12.6% of the top grossing US films in 2022 were written by women over 40. So just a little something there to show you what's going on in movies, in tv. We also, San Diego's got a lot going on. They're, they're analyzing a lot, including in television, they have something called the boxed in report, and it analyzes data for women on screen and behind, the scenes, on broadcast and streaming. So their latest report for 2023-2024 found that female characters were younger than their male counterparts. I could have told you that. But let's put some data to it. So the majority of female characters were in their 20s and 30s, whereas the majority of male characters were in their 30s and 40s. So that younger bracket of women, about 60%, and that older bracket of men is about 58%. I'm trying really hard not to put exact numbers to it because I feel like that's a very befuddling listening experience. But sometimes I think those numbers can really help sharpen our understanding there. So viewers were also much More likely to see male characters 40 plus than females who are 40 plus. So you're going to see males who are over age 40 51% of the time versus 29% for 40 plus women 51, 29. Regardless of platform, female characters experience a steep decline, well, deep whatever decline in numbers as they age from their 30s into their 40s. So from 37% of female characters in their 30s down to 15% of characters in their 40s, you're dropping off by more than half. And then only 6% of major female characters were 60 or older. 6, 6%. That's really tiny. It's also not great for men either. 9%. So we're just not really doing a good job with representation of older people, period, period.

I'm curious how aging in Hollywood will change in the coming years

let's talk a little bit about. Actually let me pause there and ask, do you have any questions that I probably can't answer, but I'd be happy to give it the old college try.

Nikki: Not about the numbers.

Salina: I.

Nikki: What I'm sitting here processing is two, things. One, I'm so curious how and if this will change in the era of 60 year old JLo's who look like they're 35 and in the era of Reese Witherspoon setting up a production company to build ah, and support women in entertainment leadership roles and to promote women led entertainment. Yeah. And Drew Barrymore, I don't want to discount, her too. She also does a lot of that. So like how will that change? The other thing I was thinking about is, we watched in the spring, golf, ah, movie with Adam Sandler, oh gosh.

Salina: Now he said, why Happy Gilmore?

Nikki: Happy Gilmore? The reason I'm bringing that up is because Julie Bowen did a blitz of interviews around that time and one of the things she spoke to was not to spoil anything, if you haven't seen Billy Madison too, just move right along for a second. But she comes back and plays his wife and, and she said they could have picked any younger woman to do that. And he came back and asked me to do it and she said I found that so fascinating. It splintered into this weird discussion about aging and women in Hollywood. It got so weird. I think the interview she was doing got uncomfortable at some point because all they wanted to talk about was her physical appearance or something. There was something to it where like that is not at all the point she was making. The point she was making is we tend to go and pick younger, sexier people instead of picking people who fit in the role.

Salina: What did it get weird when they said you may look better now than you even did in the mid-90s. Thank you.

Nikki: This is the thing. I'm like, women are aging so amazingly now that if the argument has always been that older women aren't sexy, I just am so curious how that changes.

Salina: I. Won't that be interesting? Is it that or is it that women are stepping into their own.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: And they're more like. Nope.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know, so I think it could be several things. I think there is like a little bit of a naive naivety that like, we're being very heterocentrical. Heterocentric here. But I think that men can find attractive. But I also think it's because it's easier to maneuver in that lane than it is with a woman who really is fully knows herself. May more and more 20 and 25 year old women know themselves, but the world hasn't really fostered or supported that. You know what I'm saying? So I, I think it's a fascinating thing that we're gonna probably be able to see. yeah, I think that will be very interesting to see. and I do agree that people are aging differently. I don't even know really what else to say. I mean, I had a lot of thoughts just thinking about the like, think how old Brad Pitt is right now. Yeah, I know we're just talking about men there, but you know, it's just like things have changed in certain ways and so I think we'll see how that plays out. That said, the game that we just played, it hasn't changed, it hasn't shifted much. But that age of like a Reese Witherspoon, she's not quite yet to that bracket yet. So we have things to learn in the coming years.

Nikki says Golden Girls got right when it talked about representation of older women

But like I said at the top, also want to talk a little bit about what Golden Girls got right when it talked in speaking about the representation of older women on the screen. So I realized that that was a long tee up also with all the data. But one of the reasons I wanted to do that is because I wanted to provide some frame of reference before we got to talking about the Golden Girls and their representation on tv. You know, there is, a really interesting New Yorker piece that we'll link to that really provided some good thoughts that I'm going to share here. But I do want to be sure and give them credit. For starters, we can thank the show's creator, Susan Harris, for the fact that we got to see older women at all. in our first episode Nikki, I told you, I come back and I'd revisit that origin story for Golden Girls. So when it was pitched, it was pitched as over the hill characters, over the hill who were young in attitude. The network was expecting women in their 40s, and so Harris had been picturing women, you know, age 60 to 70. So the age of the cast that we know so well today was actually a compromise between two different visions, from probably two different genders. So I just think that's an interesting thing to keep in mind. in other words, this show made older women leads versus relegating them to unimportant side characters. And so that, in and of itself, is this big thing that Golden Girls did in that representation. And so it also showed that older women still had life to live. We talked a little bit about that in our first episode. I think this is also a theme that we'll return to regularly this season. But the point is this. They didn't have to fade away just because they weren't 20, 30, 40, or even 50 anymore. These women had careers, they had wisdom, they had experience. They're beautiful friendships. They have paramours, you know, which leads me to perhaps their arguably greatest contribution. And again, this is a. Well, that I think we'll return to often, and that is subverting stereotypes. The older women. Women aren't sexual or that older women don't have sex. This must have been an absolute revolution in the mid-80s. I just can't, I don't know of any other thing where they were talking about women who were 62, like, having relationships that weren't the man they've been married to for 40 years or whatever. But, I actually read somewhere in the. It was in this article, Blanche had somewhere between 143 and 165 lovers. Dorothy, 43, and even little Sophia somewhere along the way, mentioned 25.

Nikki: Oh, wow.

Salina: So there you go.

Nikki: Fun times.

Salina: Rose. We don't. Rose is one.

Nikki: You know, Rose was very happy for a long time and just shut it all down after.

Salina: That's right. And we don't really know. I don't know what happened with these other men that came along. I don't know.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So, it just didn't mention a number for Rose, really. This was taking on a huge double standard, one that still exists today. But definitely then I'm just going to read this part of the New Yorker article, because they make the point so perfectly.

Rose Blanche says few took Golden Girls as a message about aging

Okay, so a few months before the Golden Girls debuted, Roger Moore starred as James Bond in A View to Kill.

Nikki: not to be confused with Dudley Moore, which is who I'm thinking of.

Salina: Yes, different, you know. But as Bond M. Moore snowboarded, he raced in a steeple chase. He played love, love scenes with actresses who were 20, 22, 29 and 30 years his junior. few took this as a can do message about aging, but maybe they should have. Moore was 57, exactly the right age to be a Golden Girl. He was just four years younger than Estelle Getty, who played the purse clutching great grandmother Sophia father. Frankly, James Bond was less interesting romantic lead than Sophia Petrillo. Audiences were inured to older men with attractive younger women. But it meant something when Sophia in season two went out with Burt Reynolds. And so I don't know, that just really stuck with me. And I thought that was such a, like a perfect way to kind of encapsulate what Golden Girls could do when we actually would give them the opportunity to be a James Bond in their own right.

Nikki: but, they would turn into the grandmother from Napoleon Dynamite who goes, motorbiking on the dunes and breaks her coccyx. That's what Sophia would have done.

Salina: That's right, exactly. I won't do the disservice of acting like I found all of these major criticisms, but I did find some about Golden Girls, that they're at least interesting considerations.

Nikki: So I'm not interested.

Salina: I understand. For instance, again, it's just this New Yorker article. There wasn't like a ton of content out there about Golden Girls and their, representation unless it was getting into studies. And I was trying not to do that. So how the women, they're pretty disconnected from their own children and grandchildren who do appear sometimes, but rarely and the show even seems to forget their names and how many there were. I'm going to tack on to that that, I'm actually okay with this and here's why. So my counterpoint to that argument would be, aside from the obvious point that Golden Girls was not about their extended families, I also kind of like that it's less concerned with their children. Personally, I think that's rather refreshing. and we expect women characters to be moms. We expect them to be, focus primarily on being moms and hey, that's beautiful. But that wasn't what this was about. This was a show that focused on the fact that women sometimes have other things going on too. and it, they sort of already set up that point. Our children are grown, they're doing other things and we're somewhere else. So.

Nikki: Totally agree.

Salina: The author of the New Yorker article also argues that the show, albeit not intentionally fed into this larger cultural shift to what they called aging society in denial. So you can do anything that younger people can do. You can do that anytime. And there's like no holds barred. There's nothing that sets you aside from a 27 year old. It's kind of like a perversion of what is a good thing. So autonomy and independence as you age, but imbalance and so out of balance, it kind of denies the realities that come along with aging and many like being health related. And so that maybe keeps us from collectively addressing the really harsher parts. Terrible support for older Americans who require long term assistance, people who lose everything to get this professional care, understaffed and poorly regulated nursing homes. These are all real things. and they're either kind of like pushed to the side in the narrative of Golden Girls or played as a joke. It is a sitcom.

Nikki: So like I do get right.

Salina: It also makes me wonder how an LBT would have handled an older group of women. Would we have mainly one liners or would we have had at least some sneaking in of some of these issues in a more like Designing Women style way? I don't have an answer to that. I have a feeling the answer could be yes, but of course we don't. We'll never really know. Does any of this land with you? Any of these, like. And again, it's not, they're not really criticisms. It's just like, think about this.

Nikki: Yeah, I think we definitely don't talk about the financial piece of aging a ton in Golden Girls, though we do get like for instance in the first episode, Rose's number one concern with Blanche getting married is where are we gonna live?

Salina: We can't afford a house.

Nikki: We're gonna be bag ladies. So they do touch on that a few times this age. I wonder if we would have had a storyline about Medicare. We are later in the season going to get some very pointed health issue episodes where we address those health, related issues that are singular to being older. and I think we'll see a little bit more of that LBT style production and writing in those episodes. but it, yeah, to your point, it's a, a, it's a sitcom and I think actually probably for someone like me, I would have, the show would have lost a little luster and I would have been less engaged with it if it had been that heavier, weightier issue specific stuff. All the time. so I'm kind of glad they didn't do it. So.

Salina: Yeah, I think it actually just makes more of an interesting like reflection article.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: And a reflection point. And I think that's a fine thing to reflect on now. But I think that's always sort of that challenge with a sitcom. You know, you don't want to be too hand wavy, but dang, I mean, if you're too serious, you lose everybody. You know, people want to laugh.

There is more representation of women over the age of 40 in awards categories

Let's talk about what has and hasn't changed over the years. So I'm going to throw a little bit more data at you, but it's, it's some good news. First, I ran across a 2022 women's media center article about women over the age of 40 sweeping categories at big award shows the previous year. So here's some example. You got the Emmys. We had Kate Winslet, 46, who won best actress in a limited, or anthology series for her role in Mayor of Easttown. Hannah Waddingham from ted lasso. She's 47 when she won best supporting actress for a comedy series. Our beloved Jean Smart, 70, best actress in a comedy series for Hacks, the first of, four by the way, as she recently just won again. Then other Emmy winners included Gillian Anderson at age 53. and then also Winslet's mayor co star Julian Nicholson, age 50. At the Oscars, we have Frances McDormand, 64, took home best actress for Nomadland, and Yoon Yoo Jung, 74, won best supporting actress for Minari. So there, you know, there are some, there is some more representation even in the awards categories for, women over the age of 50s. And that's great news. The article also went on to talk about the hope of 2022, which would include the series premiere of the Gilded Age starring Cynthia Nixon at age 55, Carrie Coon at age 40 and Christine Bransky at age 69, as well as middle aged women stars of the second Downton Abbey movie and then the return of Jamie Lee Curtis in the Halloween franchise. The one that they didn't mention also stars Cynthia Nixon. And that was my example early on, which is, and just like that, this is the Sex and the City. You call it a reboot or a continuation, whatever you like. But it premiered in late 2021, so about a month before this article was published. At that time, Kristin Davis and Sarah Jessica Parker were both 56 years old. The newer characters who came on the scene, most of them are also older, including, those played by Nicole Ari Parker and Sarita Chowdhury. And they were also in their 50s. So sex and the City of course was and kind of remains this cultural phenomenon and touch point for a few generations. Those who were the same age as its stars at the time, as well as younger women looking for some kind of roadmap on things like fashion, friendships and relationships of all stripes.

The reboot landed in a really different way than the original series

So I thought this was a good one to talk about because the reboot landed in a really different way. and it actually just recently ended after its third season. And it was a big deal, but the way it was a big deal was in a really different way. Most people describe watching this as their hate watch. You know, that's not really been my experience, but I do understand that that's a thing. I did watch the entire series. And I can tell you that yes, I think many of the criticisms are fair and they're valid. So the loss of Kim Cattrall to that foursome, was catastrophic. You know, misfirings around the aim to be more inclusive this time around. this was one of the more enduring criticisms of the original series. And then some of the storylines just fell a little flat.

Some people may have a fundamental dislike for middle aged women on Golden Girls

That said, I listened to criticism, Wesley Morris's podcast Cannonball, and he was joined by another ah, writer, Taffy Rodesser Ackner, to talk about the show which they both love. And I think that she made a fair point about those who dislike the show they might have some discomfort with and perhaps even a fundamental dislike for middle aged women because what she likes about the show is also true. It's a celebration of older friendships. It's a, it's a look at like things that are a timeline and a time period that's a little bit more complex and that emotional landscape of middle age, which is quite different than being like a 22 year old, a 25 year old, a 35 year old and I think highlighted some lesser explored parts of later, your later in life journey. And so I. And guess what, it ain't all glamorous. It's health issues and aging parents. It's weird body changes and sometimes starting again, much like our golden gals, you know, it's facing the darker parts of yourself. And I think that discomfort that she mentions, this fundamental dislike for middle aged women is baked into the culture. But I, think it's also maybe a discomfort and dislike of our own aging. Her best point I thought was how women identified as a carrier. Miranda, back in 1998 or 2004 or 2012, this was a real Thing they're struggling all these years later potentially with what that label means now. Spoilers M incoming. Carrie is single again. Miranda is divorced and a recovering alcoholic. It's less hip clubs and more hip surgeries. And I think that's tough for some people to face. Your own mortality. Being constantly confronted with your age, as we've learned recently, Nikki, is not the most fun experience.

Nikki: Feel great.

Salina: We've had numerous talks about that daily assault of being reminded that we're getting older. And I'm not saying I want a T shirt that says, did you just call me old? And do you want to fight? But I'm saying maybe it's crossed my mind a time or two. So I'll just pause right there, especially on this particular convert part of the conversation, and ask, is any of this resonating for you? Is there anything that you want to discuss or share? I don't think you watched and just like that. So I don't want it to be.

Nikki: Unfair, but no, but I think the thing, that I'll probably spend some time with, now that you've said it, is if you were a carrier, Miranda back for the first series, confronting that label and what it means at this stage in your life, that's fascinating to me and probably speaks a little bit to, you know, like, I've identified with the Golden Girls forever. I've been an old lady at heart forever. So aging. I'm so curious to see how it feels as I go through it. Like, I joke about it and I laugh about it. I don't really care that I'm 40 now. I don't really care. It is a little astounding as we're talking about some of these actors and their ages, to hear how old they are.

Salina: Yes.

Nikki: And that hits me really hard sometimes.

Salina: It's just like saying like, I'm 40 and that comes out of my mouth. I'm like, that was weird.

Nikki: I can absolutely see why older women have said for so long, I don't feel, feel X age because in my mind, like, there's nothing 40 about me. In my mind, I'm still like just, you know, a 22 year old girl who's calling her stepdad needing to borrow a car because I broke mine. So like, I just still feel like a little girl. so, yeah, I don't know. That's. It's all. It's a mind meld.

Salina: Yes, the mind's meld. Aging, you know, it's really something. I think it's gonna be more like, like I'LL notice this, like physically, and then I'll notice that, and then I'll notice this. But they're like these little things. They're not necessarily these big things. And I think one day I'm gonna like, look in the mirror and just be like, holy crap. That snuck up on me for sure.

Nikki: The other thing you said that I find very fascinating is people just might not like middle aged women. They're not. People are not primed to deal with a middle aged woman.

Salina: There's not even, it's like, not even necessarily like, all this evidence there. It's just that you're. But it is there.

Nikki: yeah, the anecdotal is enough evidence.

Salina: It's hard for me to be like, and here's the numbers. Although I am going to share one study because I do think that's important.

The Gina Davis Institute report recommends more diverse portrayals of older people

I want to talk about, real quickly, what can be done. Some of it is so easy. And I'm talking about, I can't help your hate for middle aged women, you buttholes. But what I can do is, I, I do think there are some things especially that the Gina Davis Institute report, had in mind that it's just like, logical, like, cast more women who are age 50 plus. It's, it's just, just do it, like.

Nikki: Sensitize people to seeing older women.

Salina: Yeah. And then particularly insignificant and diverse roles. And so also increased diversity. Because one thing I didn't even get to is, like, when we are seeing older people, a lot of them are just white. you know, so they're talking about, enhance the portrayal of older characters of all backgrounds, including more diverse races and those who are LGBTQIA plus, avoid stereotyping and instead commit to representing older adults who are complex and capable. Avoid the cliches of physical and mental decline and oh, shit, here, you know, all that. and then promote sexual diversity. Older adults having active romantic and sexual lives. it's also kind of cool to see that because you can think back to Golden Girls and be like, well, they were doing quite a handful of those, so pretty nice.

Nikki: A couple handfuls.

Salina: Please don't ever look at me again and say, okay, to be fair.

Nikki: I didn't make eye contact when I said it because I knew you wouldn't appreciate that.

Salina: you should. Or would I?

Nikki: You're so repressed like that.

Salina: Or would I? Couple handfuls.

Nikki Haley: The portrayal of women, and especially older women, is unfair

So I want to talk a little bit about why this matters. We've spoken about this many times before, but when we don't have enough representation of certain groups. My butternut squash will still go in. Nikki. Okay, okay, so it's been going for 10 extra minutes. So just if it start, if you start to smell a burn, tell me. Okay, we spoken about this many times before, but when we don't have enough representation of certain groups or instead we have like these misrepresentations when they do occur, that's a problem because that seeps from the screens to daily realities. So that, that's why this matters. If you haven't noticed, despite the intention of focusing on women in their 50s and olders, I've had to go down and talk about women in their 40s several times. Not only do I not like that because I am now in my 40s, but also because that's where our disappearance starts. The disappearance of women. If not in their mid-30s, and if not in their early 30s. We're seeing vastly fewer women, particularly in leading roles, once they hit the beginning of middle age, let alone deeper into middle age. And what is considered older Americans. We don't just have issues with leading ladies on the screen. Research has shown we have trouble with ladies who lead. One UC Berkeley Haas School of Business study indicated that successful middle aged women are are penalized for being middle aged and successful. It's a little complicated, but roll with me here for a second. So basically, over the course of human history, men have been seen as breadwinners, women as caregivers. Okay, part and parcel, these stereotypes that women should be warm and nurturing emerged, and then they live rent free in the larger culture, in our subconscious, you name it. So when women achieve success and strength, these masculine, quote unquote masculine qualities mean they're suddenly not seen anymore as what they're supposed to be. Because of this, they're penalized socially and economically. Here are some examples. That Berkeley paper found that in middle age, these successful women are seen as less likable and less hireable. Their performance evaluations decline even compared to ones they received when they were younger and less experienced. And also, it's important to keep in mind that male leaders don't face these expectations or pay these penalties. The article I read brought it up too. But it's almost impossible to not think of women in politics. C Kamala Harris, C Liz Cheney C Hillary Clinton c Nikki Haley. So all of these women, and arguably most, if not all women who enter politics at all, have to face down baffling commentary that men simply do not expect experience. The mental gymnastics alone is exhausting, don't come off as unwarm don't make anyone feel threatened by how capable you are, but also don't seem too capable, because then there's the whole warm thing. But then again, can't be too vulnerable because people will think you're incapable. And round and round and round and round we go. So there's no getting, around this. What happens to women is unfair. The way we're pigeonholed is unfair. The way we're held to impossible standards with fewer opportunities is unfair. The portrayal of women, and especially older women, in the media is unfair. And Hollywood is stuck in a karmic loop. Women, older or not, over and over and over again show that they bring incredible value to the table. They make bank at the box office, and yet each time they do, we too quickly forget collectively. And then we disappear them again and we return to business as usual. Then 10 years later, we go, oh, God, I forgot. Women, right? women. And yet, I'm so grateful for this as our extra sugar. And let me tell you why it is such nice color and context to the larger shift that we're making here on our podcast from the South. To more squarely on women's stories. What doing this segment told me is that it's really important to tell women's stories, to give us voice, to show who we are, who we can be. Our strengths, our compassion, our love, our flaws, our anger, our light, our dark. We are complicated. We are layered, and we are nuanced. But we are awesome. And guess what? We're here to stay, so get used to it. In the meantime, you know the drill. DM us, email us or contact us from the website and find us all over the socials. And that's this week's extra sugar.