Special Episode: STTV Book Club on Vacation - Marguerite by the Lake by Mary Dixie Carter

AGH! Red alert - STTV is back (sort of...) At a minimum, we are reemerging from our T. Swift pre-Reputation era cave long enough to reconvene the STTV Book Club!

We were so honored to be invited to a book release event by Mary Dixie Carter, author of Marguerite by the Lake (and daughter of Dixie Carter!) 

Her new novel - “An atmospheric, tense novel about the death of a glamorous garden designer, a widower trying to keep his secrets buried, and the beautiful young gardener.” - was the PERFECT excuse for Book Club!

This book took us on a twisty, turny ride and we have the thoughts. So grab a copy and join us for the ride! 

And bonus! Stick around at the end to hear an exclusive conversation Salina had with Mary Dixie.

Come on y’all, let’s get into it! 

Or listen on Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music.

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Transcript

Nikki: Hey, Salina.

Salina: Hey, Nikki. Hi.

Nikki: Everyone, welcome back. It's been a minute.

Salina: It's weird.

Nikki: It's weird, right?

Salina: We've been in a good way.

Nikki: Yeah. Yeah. so we finished up our Designing Women coverage, then Thelma and Louise took us over the edge in April. April feels so long ago.

Salina: Thelma and Louise, other things. Right over the edge.

Nikki: Then we. That's right over the edge. We're. We're crawling back up from the edge, though, because, we had our Taylor Swift, sort of pre Reputation era moment. Do you get that reference at all?

Salina: I think. You know I don't.

Nikki: Okie dokie. So right after she did the album 1989, and she was, like, everywhere, all the time, she just disappeared. Just went away. And the only reason we knew she was back is because she started posting on her Instagram feed that she was releasing a new album after, like, a year and a half of being gone. That's what I like to think of us as. Our pre Reputation era disappearance.

Salina: Okay. Holding all my questions inside side.

Nikki: Somebody out there is gonna get that.

Salina: Those albums. Oh, good. I know them.

Nikki: M. Good.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Well, we needed a pause.

Salina: Let's shake it off.

Nikki: Let's shake it up.

Salina: We.

Nikki: Let's shake it off. We needed a pause. We needed to just catch our breath. We've been doing this for so long, but, we are starting to sort of ramp back up and starting to think about our next era, which I think is going to be the golden era.

Speaker C: I.

Salina: So tongue in cheek. Very cute. I like that. so that is true.

Nikki: Cute, cute. Blah, blah. Uh-huh.

Salina: I'm super excited.

Nikki: It's going to be good.

Salina: Yeah. So, like, we had, like, a nugget. A nugget of an idea, and Nikki has made it pretty. So. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see.

Nikki: Thank you. We'll see. But thank you.

Salina: It's just the truth.

Nikki: In the meantime, I really wanted to have, a gavel for this next moment because I'm very excited to call to order. Gavel. Gavel. The third convening of the Sweet TNTV Book Club.

Salina: What's that contraption over there? Doesn't have a gavel.

Nikki: I. You know what? I ran out of time.

Salina: Right. Right.

Nikki: I ran out of time. There could have been one.

Salina: Order. Order. Order in the court.

Nikki: Thank you.

Salina: I only have my voice.

Nikki: It's. It's. Sometimes that's bold enough for me.

Sweet Tea and TV Book Club discusses Mary Dixie Carter's latest novel

Salina, we're here for the third convening of the Sweet Tea and TV Book Club. So we've talked about Delta Burke's fashion slash autobiography book. In the past, we've talked about Dixie Carter's autobiography. That second one is a little bit of a segue into the this edition of the book club, but as to not get ahead of myself.

Salina: Hm.

Nikki: We'll just go ahead and say we're talking about Marguerite by the Lake by Mary Dixie Carter. It was published by. By Minotaur Books, which is such a cool publishing house name, by the way. Just as an aside, on May 20, 2025. So in our universe, this is kind of hot off the presses. We are in the end of July. It was published at the end of the. May. At the end of May.

Salina: We also read it a month ago. Now.

Nikki: This is true. Fair point.

Salina: Fair.

Nikki: Fair point. So, generally speaking, this book falls into the psychological suspense category. and I found this brief description used in a couple of places. an atmospheric, tense novel about the death of a glamorous garden designer, a widower trying to keep his secrets buried, and the beautiful young gardener.

Salina: Oh, sorry. You were looking for reaction, and I.

Nikki: Was like, she's buried.

Salina: I don't know what I was thinking about.

Speaker C: It's fine.

Salina: Don't worry. Don't worry about me.

Nikki: I read it as I listened to it. Honestly. An audiobook. spoiler alert. We are back in the office full time now. So I spent a lot of time in my car. Again, I don't.

Salina: Did we ever even say that we're remote full time?

Nikki: I don't know.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: I don't know.

Salina: Just in case that's helpful.

Nikki: That's the friction that people that we experienced, I think, throughout the first part of the year is making that adjustment. Back into the office.

Salina: Yeah. Trying to find my pants. Yep. Where are my pants?

Nikki: Finding the car and finding the interstate, it's a whole thing. So I listened to it as an audiobook. But you read the actual book.

Salina: Yes. I haven't, embraced audiobooks yet.

Nikki: I get it.

Salina: I support it. And it's totally ridiculous, right? Because I listen to podcasts all the time.

Nikki: I don't know about that. I think I. I, for a long time thought audiobooks were weird. My mom listened to em, for a long time, and I would get in her car and it would be this, like, really elaborate Southern drawl telling part of a story that I don't know. And I was like, mom, this is so cheesy. Do you think they're hiring voice actors?

Salina: Just whoever.

Nikki: Yeah, maybe.

Salina: Be kind of fun, I think.

Nikki: Oh, I definitely agree. Yeah. And I would nominate you and I would nominate you. We nominate each other, and we cancel each other.

Salina: Quite fine if I said it would.

Nikki: Be a fun job.

Salina: You won't remember. Neither will I. But, like, I always feel like Quasimodo to your voice. Like, your perfect NPR voice. And I'm like, Salina, I'm here.

Nikki: We're gonna fix your self esteem. Not in this record.

Salina: Let me tell you who didn't help my self esteem. All my friends and family who were like, when we first started.

Nikki: Don't listen to them.

Salina: And they were like, nikki's voice is so nice. It is really nice. Crickets.

Nikki: Crickets.

Salina: And I was like, all, right. Moving on. So it's really not me in this case. It's all my friends and family.

Nikki: Maybe they compliment you on other things and they don't want to give you a big head.

Salina: Definitely. That is what it's that.

Nikki: It's that. Right?

Salina: Yes.

Mary Dixie Carter dedicated her book to longtime sweeties

Nikki: Anyway, can we pause on the author name real quick? Mary, Dixie Carter. I know that you hate when I call the people who are listening sweeties, and I keep doing it. so that name should sound familiar. To longtime sweeties. that's because it's one of Dixie Carter's beloved daughters. Mary Dixie is one of the people she dedicated the coda of her book, to, which I think you and I both flagged as one of the most touching parts of the book.

Salina: Beautiful.

Mary Dixie invited us to a book signing event in Woodstock last month

Nikki: So, Mary Dixie reached out on social media to invite us to a book signing event that she was participating here in the Atlanta area to promote Marguerite by the Lake. And since I don't leave the house after dark, you attended on behalf of, Sweet Tea and tv. So can you set the scene for that book event for us and tell us a little bit more about what it was like. Like, starting with maybe, like, where was it? When was it?

Salina: Well, it was dark.

Nikki: and that's why I was.

Salina: Well, not at the beginning. At the beginning, it was light. But you would have had to have driven home in the dark. Yes, it.

Nikki: And I don't do that. It gets dangerous.

Salina: It does.

Nikki: I got the astigmatism.

Salina: It was tough times. It was. It's always a little dicey every time I'm driving, so daylight, nighttime, whatever. probably shouldn't say that since I drove her around at some point, so.

Nikki: I have so many stories of you driving. Let's get started. No, where was it and when was it?

Salina: Yes. So it was late last month. So June. And it was a very cute bookshop. That is for those who are in the Atlanta area, then you will be familiar with Woodstock. If you're not from the Atlanta area, it's about 30ish minutes outside of the city with. Without traffic.

Nikki: Without traffic.

Salina: Uh-huh. and Woodstock itself is a really cute little town. And, so I just want to say also that great staff there. so someone who worked there, her name is, Hyphen. And she was just, like, really kind and giving with her time. Super knowledgeable. Like, a book got mentioned. And the next. And I was like, oh, I would look into that. And then she just appeared with it. And I was like, ah, all right, I'll take that.

Nikki: Her name is Hyphen and she works at a bookstore?

Salina: Yes.

Nikki: Oh, my God. Did she change her name, or do you think she was always meant to work in a bookstore?

Salina: You know, I do think she was probably always meant to work in a bookstore. I. And, I don't know if she.

Nikki: Changed her name, like a stage name.

Salina: I like the name.

Nikki: cool.

Salina: Yeah. And also, she was very fascinating, and I got a couple of stories out of her, and she has a very fascinating life, so.

Nikki: Cool.

Salina: Anyways, she let me. Mary, Dixie and I stay afterwards, so that we could record some of the reels if. If anyone has been paying attention to our social media, you may have seen some of those pop up. And it was just, That was really sweet because I'm sure she was, like, ready to go home. M. but otherwise I would have been doing them, like, out in the street. So that was the one part I didn't put together. You know what I'm saying?

Nikki: So Hyphen took pity on you, and she was like, please don't go out into the street after dark.

Salina: I really like it when people. People take pity on me. I kind of need it.

Nikki: Honestly. It's the best way to live.

Salina: Yes. And now I'm just blinking. Did I say the name of the book?

Nikki: You did not.

Salina: Okay. It's Foxtel Bookshop.

Nikki: Okay. That's a cute name.

Salina: So, like, F, O, X, T A, L, E. Just M. That's the cuteness.

Nikki: Cute. A little play on words.

What were your first impressions of Mary Dixie

What were your first impressions of Mary Dixie?

Salina: Okay, so this is, like, always, like, a little weird. I mean, I don't. I don't know if she's gonna listen to this or not, so. And I'm. I don't know. I'm, like, trying to think how I would react if someone was, like, describing me. So with that in mind, I just want to say that I thought that she was a beautiful person, both inside and out. Truly. I'm not sure I'd say that. It's hard to. It's hard to not think about Dixie Carter right as I'm joining this event. And, I mean, I've seen her picture, so. But, like, walking in and then obviously, the episode of Designing Women that she's on. But, she doesn't look a ton like Dixie Carter. That said, they have a very similar, like, graceful presence.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: And so these are women that I would describe as carrying themselves. Well, you know. Yeah. but I found her to be warm and personable, like, genuine and authentic. And, like, she seemed to really care about every person that she was talking to. Like, she seemed like a really grateful person. I don't know. Like, you could just tell that she was, like, just, like, happy to be there and be talking about this passion of hers and. Yeah, I thought that was really lovely.

Nikki: Oh, that's cool. It's, I hear what you're saying about it being kind of weird to describe a person. Our only impression, I will say, at least my only impression of her is seeing her on a TV show. She's on a TV show that people watch all the time in their homes, and she's a published author. So to me, she is almost like this mythical kind of thing. And so I think it's really cool to hear that one. You actually got to meet the woman, the myth, the legend, but also that you are able to kind of personalize her so much. Yeah, that's cool.

Was there anything in the Q and A that stood out to you

was there anything in the Q and A or, like, in your, In the talk that she gave or in your sort of watching this panel take place, Anything that stood out to you that you think people should know.

Salina: So on in retrospect, like, you know, she invited us maybe a week before, and in the current, like. Like you said, back to the office five days a week, There wasn't time for me to read it, so. And I wanted to get a copy there. Like, that seemed part of the experience.

Nikki: I think that's cool.

Salina: And so I kind of wanted to kick myself for not being more informed about the book going in. Like, I knew the highlights, like, essentially the synopsis that you had read, but I, didn't know much more than that. Like, I. I think I would have probably had some questions and things to add to the conversation. What I did really enjoy, though, was hearing about her writing process, including, like, the research that she did. She took a master class in gardening design to make sure she got the Color and the context for all of that.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: You really hear the journalist shining through there.

Nikki: Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Like I hadn't thought about that. Really putting the time and the effort in that to understand it and speak knowledgeably.

Salina: Right. So like that just read like such a journalist move.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know, especially because she, on the back end of all of that goes, gets back in touch with the teacher of the class and has them. She highlights all the parts of the book that are about gardening and has him go through it. Well, she didn't have them. She asked him and he acquiesced and went through and made sure that everything was accurate.

Mary Dixie Carter's new book has enough ambiguity to make it interesting

also, I really like this conversation that was had in the room about how all writers are kind of outsiders, like observers of the world who report back. I think there's some truth in that.

Salina: Does that land for you at all?

Nikki: Yeah, I think that being able to write something that resonates with a large group of people, it almost has to be based on an observation of like, what happens out in the broader world. Because you don't want to write a book that's super specific and no one can see themselves in it, so you almost write it. And especially this book, which I think we'll get into, has enough ambiguity in it that you could see this story really happening to a person. Maybe not me, maybe not you, but to a person. It's ambiguous enough you could see that, but also like, is an experience that you know enough that you could kind of see really happening. If that makes sense.

Salina: It does, it does. And that is quite the balance that gets struck, I guess, in a book. Been reading a lot of non fiction for a long time now, so I forget.

Nikki: Yeah. Welcome back to the world of fiction.

Speaker C: I know it's a fun place to be.

Salina: It. It, it was a really fun place to be. Honestly, I was like, oh, I forgot about this. I was like, this is nice. Love it. So well. Okay, so the other thing that gets talked about in the room that night and in the Q and A is that, you know, Dixie Carter inspired aspects of the titular Marguerite. We'll hear directly from Mary Dixie at the end of the episode on exactly how that came about versus it, coming for me, because that seems more boring.

There were two Georgia authors in the audience at the QA

Interestingly though, and this is my last thing that really struck me in the Q A, there were two Georgia authors in the audience. I think they were fans of hers, which I thought was really cute and sweet, but both with, recently published books that were actually set here in Georgia. I Think that we should consider covering like, one or both of these in the future.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: I'll, sit here and pretend like I've never said this to you before, but. So one of them is.

Nikki: And I'll pretend like it's not in my notes at the end of this, recording.

Salina: I'm m pretending like I didn't see that. So anyways, we'll just all pretend. Gothic Town is one of the books by Emily Carpenter. Crazily enough. Like, days later, I'm in a bookshop with my aunt and I see it out on the table and I was like, how cool. And then I open up the COVID and it was like, soon coming to amc.

Nikki: Oh, Series Larry.

Salina: Yeah. And I was like, what? And then, Fabled Earth was the other book by Kimberly Brock. I will tell you, I think both of them seem incredibly interesting and I'm excited to read them both. I also wound up buying them and getting both copies signed. And it's now a part of our Sweet Tea and TV library.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: So the thing is like, I kind of, currently hold the Sweet Tea and TV library. But the thing that I think that you have.

Nikki: Delightful for me.

Salina: Yeah. You don't have to put something somewhere.

Nikki: Absolutely.

Salina: You. It's yours just as much as it is mine.

Nikki: Thank you.

Salina: but yeah, that was the kind of, the experience in the room. People seemed interested in the book and excited to be there. And it was just, it was intimate and lovely.

Nikki: That's cool.

Was there anything in your conversation with Dixie Carter that surprised you

And then I know you recorded a bunch of reels for, that you've been slowly, slow dripping on social media. And we're gonna, drop some of that at the end of this episode, but was there anything in your. And I know you also don't want to say everything you talk to her about privately because that would be not cool, but was there anything in your one on one conversation that you had with her that maybe surprised you a little bit or would be interested. Interesting to people who are listening.

Salina: I think it's just, one thing that sort of struck me as we talked is like, it sort of underscored the things that we've talked about here on the podcast M in the Times. We've talked about Dixie Carter. You know what I'm saying? So, like the when. So one of the questions that we wound up asking her. See, even I still pretend like you were right there. You know what I'm saying?

Nikki: I'm in your head all the time.

Salina: One of the questions that. Well, I physically asked it, but, you.

Nikki: Know, I Emotionally, spiritually. Spiritually. Thank you.

Salina: Still there. You know, I was like, your mom was, like, unapologetically Southern. So, like, what, if anything, did she pass down to you? And she had said to me, she was like, you know, I don't know if anything's, like, really Southern. But then she started talking. I was like, oh, that's Southern.

Nikki: Uh-huh.

Salina: You know, and maybe it does ring true every other place, but it also feels like Southern because that's the perspective that I can look at life.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: Or whatever.

Nikki: But, yeah, she.

Salina: You know, one of the things she talked about was how her mom loved a tablescape that was flipping one of my favorite parts of the book. I know. And I was like, that's so cool.

Nikki: That's neat.

Salina: Yeah. So there was that aspect of it. I mean, we talked about other things. We talked a lot about non Designing Women things and non book things. And. And, I mean, I don't think any of this is, like, private. You know, we talked a lot about travel and work. And she told me a bit. Little bit about her kids. Here's their address. I'm kidding.

Nikki: Social Security number.

Salina: It's no problem. I'm going to share your Social Security number. My Social Security. Let's get it all out on the show.

Nikki: Just put it out there. Let's really know each other.

Salina: Let's know each other all the way. So. So we exchanged travel stories, too. And she tells me about. I think you'll appreciate this because of your love of, like, French things. but she was talking about how she, Her family went to Paris, and, they went to, like, a cooking class outside of Paris. And she was like, we made the best croissants I've ever had. And I was like, sign me up.

Nikki: Yep.

Salina: I love croissant. but also, I thought you would be interested to know that. And this is what I meant about, like, her connecting with people, you know, and just having a genuine interest. I think this goes back to the author thing and the curiosity piece. But she asked about us and what got us started with the podcast. And you could tell she. And she did. You know, we talked about it because I was like. I was like, have you actually listened? You know, I'm, so smooth like that. And like, she was like, yes.

Nikki: And then did she say, did you actually read the book?

Salina: And I was like, no. But I was like, oh, yeah. Quiz. No, I'm just kidding. So anyways, pop quiz.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: But she asked about your kids. And, you know, of course I told her like, well, Nikki's a lovely mom and she's like, I love to watch her with her kids and from the window at night. I ain't driving all the way to where you live.

Nikki: Fair point, fair point.

Salina: You like how I like.

Nikki: I do.

Salina: Say the self edited, that was hard.

Mary Dixie hosted a book signing event for Designing Women recently

obviously the Designing Women. And this is my last thing that I wanted to share here, but, like, the Designing Women connection drew me in. Of course. But what was really interesting to me is like, she was a journalist and now she's an author. And that resonates with me.

Nikki: It gave you some hope for the future.

Salina: Sure did.

Nikki: Motivation, something to work for.

Salina: Sure did. That's cool.

Nikki: One day we'll all be sitting at Salina's book signing event.

Salina: I.

Nikki: It'll be non fiction, so it'll be boring, but we'll be there.

Salina: It won't be. Nobody wants my self help book.

Nikki: I just thought it was going to.

Salina: Be like, buy yourself a trampoline, bring it to the office.

Nikki: Oh, Lord. are you ready to start our book discussion or do you have anything else you want to share about the book event and meeting Mary Dixie?

Salina: Let's see. Only that I'm. Is it a little embarrassed to say this was the first book signing event I'd ever been to?

Nikki: I'm not sure I've ever been to one.

Salina: Yeah, I just. I'd never. I never. Yeah, I never did that.

Nikki: I've never been invited to one.

Salina: Yeah. well, I've certainly never been invited to one.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So why would I be invited? Why would you go?

Nikki: If not invited, why go?

Salina: Well, there you go. I never thought about it that way before. so I just would like. I liked seeing the three authors interact.

Nikki: Okay. Because, you know, and I will pause you real quick just to say I thought this was a panel and now I'm realizing those people are in the audience. Yeah, that explains a lot.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: Yeah. Okay.

Salina: So unless I didn't understand the setup, which is also possible.

Nikki: Were you really there?

Salina: Yeah, I just pretended. Oh, that would be. I'm a little phoenix like that.

Nikki: You know what I'm saying? Absolutely.

Salina: So, like, the two Georgia authors are both gothic writers.

Nikki: Yeah. Ah.

Salina: And like, we'll get into it, but I don't know. Like, obviously, like, this novels kind of has like a darkness to it. And so there seemed to be this shared interest in narratives that played around with and in the darkness of human psyche. And so, I don't know, it just. It felt interesting to hear their excitement about each other's work and about what they're respectively and collectively bringing to the literary table.

Salina: And to get that kind of like, like courtside, view.

Salina: I have to really think about the sports now. Took me a minute. and then just the general passion for books. Yeah, you know, we need that. Yeah, let's not lose that. Super important, it's super important that books are available everywhere. It's super important that we have bookshops and libraries and access to read all kinds of different information. So anything that can, like, go towards celebrating that, like, I'm all a part of that. Incidentally, I bought a high amount of books.

Nikki: I love that for you.

Salina: I was like, I couldn't even like, hardly get them all in my book bag.

Nikki: You had a book bag?

Salina: I did a.

Nikki: Well, thank you for going.

Salina: That was wonderful. I wish you could have been there. obviously I missed you very much. But it is kind of nice to report back, so. And you not have to sit here.

Nikki: And hear a description of the thing I was at.

Salina: That's right.

Nikki: Yeah, I get that. I get that. Well, a big thanks to Mary Dixie for inviting us. And big thanks to Salina for going, and reporting back to us.

Salina: Yeah. It's a good thing I stopped being scared to drive.

Nikki: I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud of you.

Salina says she had zero expectations going into this book

All right, let's get into our discussion. So, Marguerite by the lake. I found a book club guide on readinggroupguides.com so I borrowed a couple of cues from it and I wanted to acknowledge that. That. But I also added a couple of my own.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: So I just want to. I'm going to give that disclaimer at the top. I don't remember which is which, so if you want to fact check me, feel free. but some of them I came up with on my own.

Salina: I will not be fact checking you.

Nikki: Okay, thank you. I was looking at you to make sure. So, general impressions, Salina. Ultimately. Was this the book you were expecting when you started?

Salina: No. Yeah, definitely not. Especially like hearing Mary Dixie talk about the gardening piece. I just don't think I was prepared for something so deliciously dark.

Nikki: Oh my gosh, that's such a good point. That you had a totally different viewpoint on this book going into it than I did. Ah, because you attended the event.

Salina: Right?

Nikki: So you heard bits and pieces without context. That's fascinating.

Salina: Yeah, I think I was like, further confused maybe.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: You know, so like, I knew there was like, I knew Marguerite died like that.

Nikki: I knew that when you told me that before I got to that part.

Salina: In the book, it was only like 25 pages in.

Nikki: Sure, sure. She's in the title. But she dies so early.

Salina: Well, she is dying on the front cover.

Nikki: Oh, well, I. I did an audiobook. I don't have a front cover.

Salina: Margarite in the lake. May have not read the thing, you know, so I. Yeah, I didn't really have any expectations either. And for me, the whole read was a pleasant surprise. It like, also embodied these kind of themes that I'm sucker for a, sucker for. It's like classic fish out of water story. We've got this, like, class and social status piece prominently featured. It's just a perfect breeding ground for conflict. It was also giving revenge. Do you remember this show?

Nikki: No.

Salina: This is like a soapy drama from the 2010s on ABC. It was like a young woman who wormed her way into the upper crust Hampton society to, you know, get revenge.

Nikki: Sure. So as one does.

Salina: And. And there's like a lot of twists and turns and I'm sure somebody, if there is anybody that like, actually watches it, but actually she was part of the upper crust. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. Okay. But just go with me.

Nikki: Go with you. I'm with you.

Salina: So good show. Two only m. Four seasons. You might actually be.

Nikki: I might actually follow through. Yeah.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: I also had zero expectations going into it because I don't even think I read the summary. You had mentioned to me that she reached out and invited us to this and I knew I wasn't gonna be able to go. And I was like, I should just go ahead. And I was pleasantly surprised. It was on Spotify and I could listen to it because it's so new. I don't know, I just thought it wouldn't be there. so I was really glad I could listen to it. So I had no expectations. I'm not sure I even read the description. I will tell you, when I started listening to it, I thought I knew exactly where it was going. I was horribly wrong.

Phoenix feels like this super straightforward character in the beginning of the book

so, like, in the beginning, Phoenix feels like this super straightforward character. You think you're getting this super, reliable, small town, blue collar girl like you on the outside looking in and you think she's going to lead you through this. New things were coming. But I thought she would be reliable and someone to follow. Which. Exactly. Which we'll talk about in a little while. But of course, by the end, it's totally off track. And Phoenix is not at all who you thought she was in the first chapter or two. I will say there were hints along the way that I think I even registered them as I was listening. Yeah, it's always, like, when you look back, it's the sixth sense of it all. You look back and you're like, oh, of course that happened. And that happened. But even as I was listening, I thought, like, there were some things coming that were gonna surprise me. like, early in the book, the way she talked about how she lost her grandmother was interesting. Like, you knew there was more of a story there, and you knew it was maybe a little darker than you thought it was gonna be. she mentioned a few times how, like, obsessed she was with Rosecliffe. It wasn't this, like, oh, we have this really cool mansion in our town that I should show you sometime. Like, she had it, an obsession for it. And then the rest of the book really felt moody, so that gave me a sense things were coming. but I just thought. I thought, this is straightforward. I get it. And it really took some turns.

Salina: Yeah. Can I say something in your defense? I suppose I also want to say that in addition to the fact that it would have been completely across Atlanta for you to go to this, event, in addition, you had literally just gotten back from vacation, like, a day before I did. I don't know. I just feel the need to defend you. I don't. I don't need to. No one's asking for it. You're not asking for it, but sitting on me. And I appreciate my heart and, like, yeah, that's so kind.

Nikki: I'm trying not to do so much, like, proactive defending of my choices.

Salina: I'm here for.

Nikki: Because, like you said, we don't have to, but really wanted to go. And I really appreciate you saying that, because everybody's probably, like, that horrible person.

Salina: I don't think anybody's thinking that. and I will have words. That horrible person will have words.

Nikki: Anyway, thank you. That's so kind.

I couldn't put the book down for four days. Maybe four days

so did the book keep you turning the page?

Salina: I couldn't put it down.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: And so you're talking about, like, thinking back. I actually was, thinking I could make this my first audiobook so I could go back and hear the things that maybe I missed. Because I was just, like, zooming right through it. Like, I finished it. Maybe four days. Yeah, that's four days. I was also, like. Also, like, those were work days, so I was cramming that in.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: And also reading, I want to say, three other books.

Nikki: You're always reading a lot of books. At one time. It's an impressive amount of multitasking.

Salina: I'm a psychopath. but I. I just needed to know which way this was going. There were some so many red herrings that for much of it, like, I didn't know what was up and what was down. And honestly, I liked it.

Nikki: Yeah, that's so true. I completely agree. And the breadcrumbs too. Like you sort of. Some of it was red herring, which is like a super great catch. And then some of it really was like, you're reading. You're like, there's something here. I need to. Like, what happened with grandma? Like, what happened with grandma? What happened with her dad? And I just really wanted to know. So I will admit that the last two chapters I put on 1.5 speed because two was too fast. It felt like a chipmunk talking to me. But 1.5 got me to the end faster, so I could just know. Kyle hates that I look up the end of things before I finish them sometimes. And this one, the only reason I didn't look it up is cuz nobody had posted the ending anywhere that I could find. So I was against the ropes. I had to finish it.

Salina: I. So I don't do any more. But I used to. I would go to the very last page and read it.

Nikki: I can't do that. That feels like cheating in a different way.

Salina: It doesn't tell you anything. Honestly.

Nikki: Usually not, no. yeah.

Salina: Because it's not like I imagine the last book of a page has to be incredibly hard to write.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: That's a lot of pressure.

Nikki: A lot of pressure.

Salina: That's like a series finale.

Nikki: Yes, yes.

I wanted to ask you what you thought of the tone and the writing style

I wanted to ask you what you thought of the tone and the writing style, because honestly, I was listening to it thinking this was right up your alley, that this was the sort of thing you would, like, love.

Salina: I am the darkness.

Nikki: You said a minute ago, like, something about, that they were bonding over the dark psyche of the human experience. And I was like. And you were right there with them, weren't you? You were right in there.

Salina: I feel like it's confusing because I'm like. But I'm like, death.

Nikki: It is. It's a thrill a minute being your friend. No, ma'. Am.

Salina: Well, you guys need to understand, that the darkness is the divine feminine, so.

Nikki: Oh, well, there you go.

Salina: There you go. That's why we have moon goddesses or something.

Salina says she was inspired by Edgar Allan Poe's Telltale Heart

Nikki: Oh, we've gone into a new podcast topic for Salina.

Salina: Everybody get out tornado charts. We're gonna find out why you're screwed up.

Nikki: What would we call you? We'd be Shaman S. Salina can't claim that title. Not yet.

Salina: I don't have the background.

Nikki: Once you do the work, you will. Anyway, the darkness lives in you. What did you think of the writing style?

Salina: It does. And? Well. Okay, so this is something I say. I held this back, but she did say that she was inspired by Edgar Allan Poe's Telltale Heart.

Nikki: That makes so much sense.

Salina: And do you like how I held something?

Nikki: I do. I love that. That makes so much sense.

Salina: You really fill it in the sauce in a very enjoyable way. So it was dark, and as Phoenix unravels and she becomes more unhinged, so does her. In the book's perspective. Right. Yeah.

Nikki: and it almost gets blurry at the end. Like, as you're reading it, you feel all the details going in and out of focus.

Salina: I was like, am I having whiskeys?

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: The painting is her heart underneath the floorboards. No.

Nikki: Yes, absolutely.

Salina: It becomes more and more alive as the guilt, sadness, despair, and uncertainty m. Melt within the house. Or what I like to call Sunday night. You've never heard Sunday scaries defined, have you?

Nikki: That's so true. That's so true.

Salina: There was also, like, this really strong sense of place for most of it, without getting too mired in the details. I think, like, I've told you about this how I don't love it when an author, like, waxes poetically about a blade of grass.

Nikki: Oh, sure.

Salina: So, like, I. I'm just thankful she didn't do that.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: If we're talking about style.

Nikki: Yeah, yeah. The moody tone and, like, sort of atmosphere. The, like, the sense of place that you're describing. I think it worked so well for the story she was trying to tell. Like, you can't tell an Edgar Allan Poe inspired story at Disney World, you know, like, you have to tell it in a very specific place. So I thought it was a perfect fit.

I liked the idea that you can follow along with the mystery as you go

and then the other thing that I really liked was you. You mentioned red herrings. I've mentioned breadcrumbs. But sort of this idea that you can follow along with the mystery as you go and you can try to unravel it yourself. So I've been reading A Good Girl's Guide to Murder. my niece loved those books, and it came across my Kindle page or something recently, and I was like, I'll give it a whirl. And so I've been reading it. It's very similar. You get to sort of unravel this mystery as you go. By the end of this book, it becomes less mystery and more psychotic. I do love being able to sort of see these things and think, this is a hint. Right? Like, this is something that's the part of me that needs to know where a thing is going. I enjoy that. so I really liked that sort of style.

This is spoiler alert territory, in case we haven't already been there

You want to talk theories? This is spoiler alert territory, in case we haven't already been there. but total spoiler alert.

Salina: How many do you have?

Nikki: Three.

Salina: You have three. Okay, now five. So you want to just volume back and forth until I'm extra.

Nikki: Let's do it.

Salina: I can even drop my last two. They like. I want to hear them worse. Okay.

Nikki: I want to hear what you want to share.

Salina: Okay. This was, like, my suggestion, and then when I map mine out, I was like, I'm not proud of these.

Nikki: Don't you love how that happens? That happens to me a lot.

Salina: So I'll just go ahead and say that, you know, you're allowed to self.

Nikki: Edit on the fly. Salina, if you want to leave something out, no one will ever know except that you just told us.

Salina: Okay. Yeah. Or like to add things in, and.

Nikki: Maybe I'll just cut this whole section.

Salina: Bad ideas. We'll see.

Nikki: People. People are like, do they ever cut anything? Because they always say, maybe I'll cut this out and then it ends up there.

Salina: Well, surprise.

Nikki: Just consider it bonus content.

Salina: You come edit it.

Was that Phoenix killed Marguerite on purpose? Salina: Two theories

Nikki: All right, well, you start because you have more than me.

Salina: Okay, so. So my theory. One has two options.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: my baloney has a first name.

Nikki: I was thinking, choose your own adventure.

Salina: Oh, okay.

Nikki: And I do like doing that.

Salina: Yeah. And while you're on your adventure, you're eating bologna. I don't know. So the broad theory.

Nikki: Uh-huh.

Salina: Was that Phoenix killed Marguerite on purpose. Okay. I wrote down a couple of options here. In option A, she has DID or disassociative. Oh, disorder.

Nikki: Yeah. Okay.

Salina: And she loses time when she's angry. She has no memory of it until it's revealed to us, the readers, that she pushed Marguerite off the cliff. It's also revealed by her brother. Cliff. that Phoenix killed her grandmother years ago. It wasn't an accident. He's hid it from her all this time to mentally protect her from herself. For the record, minus the diagnosis, this one is partially correct.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: In my reading of the ambiguity at the end.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Because we don't ever. Let's. I'll put a pin in it. We'll get there. Option B. Until you tell me. Like I missed something.

Nikki: Oh.

Salina: At the end of the book, I don't know. It's revealed that she absolutely knew she killed her. But this fact is hidden from us, the reader. A larger plot is revealed between her and her brother, who plan the whole thing in order to exact revenge on Marguerite and to get money. And here's why. Marguerite slept with their father and is the reason that the mom left. They also worked together to kill their grandmother because she was a bag of crap. That's theory one.

Nikki: That's theory one.

Salina: Two Parter.

Nikki: I want to pause and say you have a future, Salina. I don't know that you know this, but you have a future in soap opera writing. When soap operas have their grand resurgence.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: You will be at the writing table.

Salina: Here's all you need to do to be a good soap opera writer. Ingest many soap operas.

Nikki: Do not minimize your skill. Or soap operas for weaving a narrative. Do not minimize that. Wow, that was a lot to take in. Because my second, theory that I wrote down was that Phoenix totally pushed Marguerite on purpose. M. She spent the whole book protesting about it, like how she didn't do it and blah, blah, blah. She totally did it and it was entirely intentional.

Salina: But this is your second theory?

Nikki: yes.

Salina: Okay, so it's not your top. It wasn't your top. Guess you're just looping in with mine.

Nikki: Oh, no, these are just things that I thought were going to happen as I went along. I don't, I don't. They're not really ranked in any sort of way. Just what I wrote down when I wrote it down. but I just, I just. As soon as it happened, I thought she totally did that on purpose. The disassociative identity disorder is fascinating to me because when we talk about Phoenix, I think that might be the word that I was looking for. So I think we're on the same page is what I'm saying.

Nikki: Will you keep going?

My second theory is that Marguerite isn't really dead

Salina: Okay, so my second theory is that Marguerite isn't really dead. Whoa, Whoa. What just blew my mind? yeah, Everything past the tree, falling on jail for it is the beginning. And in at the beginning is in Phoenix's head, who suffers from several mental health issues. So, And then we don't learn that until the end of the book.

Nikki: Okay, okay. Okay.

Salina: That's my second theory.

Nikki: Keep going.

Salina: Okay. My third theory is that Jeffrey was planning to kill Marguerite because he found out that she knew about his shady business dealings. And when he said sees Phoenix do It he decides to use this knowledge to manipulate her into keeping the business going and the money flowing while simultaneously doing things to make her unravel and turn herself in. This, gives him the time he needs to plan his ultimate escape with his secret lover. Serge.

Nikki: Serge. So I think that one is less theory and more actuality. Except that second bit where he sort of was intentionally, driving her crazy. Although now that you say that the part where she kept smelling the waft of roses throughout the house. Could he have been so diabolical that he kept doing that? Never occurred to me. I definitely believed that. I mean, I think they tell us this, that he saw what happened and was just as guilty as she was by not saying anything. He saw it happen.

Nikki: And it served him well.

Salina: There's that. But I did write that down after we had had the discussion about writing down theories and before the end of the book.

Nikki: Okay. Okay.

Salina: Maybe after she finds those pictures.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: I definitely thought that Marguerite had had an affair with Serge at some point. I never saw the Jeffrey. Serge thing coming. Yeah, I never saw that coming. There was like this, undercurrent that there was definitely something weird. I mean, Serge was making she's his master portrait. That's just odd. And there was some sort of friction. I never saw the Jeff Research thing coming.

We interpreted this assignment very differently, so what's your next theory

Nikki: What's your next theory?

Salina: Are you going to tear into your theory?

Nikki: Well, because I think we interpreted this assignment very differently and I very much appreciate the direction you're going. Oh, I want to keep going that way.

Salina: Okay, so theory 4. I can't for the life of me figure out what the how would be. But there was a part of me that at one point was like, is. Was Helen planning to kill Marguerite?

Nikki: This is the neighbor.

Salina: She wanted to return her family's home to its rightful place at Rosecliffe.

Nikki: That was a little bit of, ah, a, And maybe again you named it Red Herring. Maybe that's it. but that was a little bit of a, like, unresolved thread to me was how angry she was about the Rosecliffe thing.

Salina: Right.

Salina: So, yeah, it was just like. That could have been like an interesting thing to play with. And then my final theory is that Taylor threatened to turn in the housekeeper Nina on the grounds that her visa had expired if she did not agree to say that she saw a second person at the cliff when her mom had fell. She hates Phoenix and will stop at nothing to see her burn.

Nikki: She does hate Phoenix. Yeah, I thought for sure that. Well, yeah, I mean, she says she has all the reasons in the world, too. I thought for sure Taylor was going to die at some point. I just didn't expect it to happen the way it did. Yeah, that one took me by surprise, too.

Salina: So, okay, so what was your interpretation?

Nikki: I just told you all of my theories along the way. again, I think I was thinking when you started the book and as you were reading along, what did you think was gonna happen?

Salina: Right.

Nikki: And. Or what did you think had happened in some of the ambiguity?

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: So that's where I went.

Salina: Yeah, I think. Well, me too. But I think minors.

Nikki: This is elaborate.

Salina: Crazy.

Nikki: Yours was elaborate. I like it.

Salina: Just a big old nut ball.

Nikki: Don't call yourself that, please. You want to talk characters and relationships, get that ball.

Salina: I do. I do.

Nikki: Big old ball of nuts.

Did you think Phoenix was trustworthy or unreliable in this book

All right. Phoenix. Phoenix's past. I think this one definitely came from the book, club guide that I found online. But, like, how would you describe Phoenix as a narrator? Did you think she was trustworthy or unreliable? Were there certain moments that made you feel this way?

Salina: I'm just going to start by saying that, like, I. By the end, I don't think I liked any character for sure. And even though I understood the motives, in most cases, almost everybody did something that was just, like, awful. just awful.

Nikki: Uh-huh.

Salina: So that was, like. But I liked it. It was, like, tough, you know?

Salina: Yeah, I think her position made for the most interesting narrator. I think it was the right choice. Again, it's her Is an outsider. An obsession with being an insider that makes the story all the more enticing. You know, I think you can tell from my theories that, no, I did not find her trustworthy. They're all in. In mental illness, so. No, I didn't think you picked up.

Nikki: On that early in the book.

Salina: You're reliable. Yeah.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Not that mental illness is like a p. Everyone deserves love and compassion. Nikki.

Nikki: telling me, telling me.

Salina: So. But I do think if you don't have a clear understanding of what's going on around you.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Yeah. That makes being reliable tough.

Nikki: Well, we're all a little bit unreliable. Right. Like, we all have our own layers of things. And then when you're not in your ideal state of mind, you become increasingly less reliable.

Salina: Yes.

Nikki: You have a different explanation and different perception of what happened than even a rational person would have.

Salina: Just ask, like, three people what happened at a bad Thanksgiving.

Nikki: Absolutely.

Salina: You know?

Nikki: Absolutely.

Salina: And that's, not. The stakes aren't even high.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: I mean, depending on the Thanksgiving Yeah, sure. specific moments. Okay. So I felt for her initially. This is like sort of what you were saying in the beginning, or like, you know, I. I liked her, you know, because it's. It's written from her perspective. you know, we're brought into it is seeing this, Marguerite's death as an accident. Like, you know, that. That's what I believe, too.

Nikki: Well, and Phoenix saved Jeffrey at the book event. So you have that early moment where you're like, she's almost a hero.

Salina: That's a great point. the. The moments that really made me believe that she wasn't trustworthy were her interactions with Taylor. By then I was like, oh, my gosh, this is just not great.

Nikki: This is all gone sideways.

Salina: So where she needs a friend, you know, like, bounce some of these conversations off of them. Someone needs to get some feedback. But her, increasingly absurd inner monologue and perception of things. So there's like a million of them, but one that stands out to me is when she finds out, Joffrey is getting Taylor a car for graduation and then thinks to herself, why isn't getting me a car? I was like, oh, okay, Houston, we have a problem.

Nikki: Why do they love her so much?

Salina: Yes. But also, I. Okay. Something that I think Mary Dixie did that was so brilliant. Was she, like, the threads of the heavier and heavier drinking, you know? Oh, along with these increased illusions and the mounting paranoia. Like, you get the idea you're not necessarily dealing with the most stable person.

Nikki: Sure. You know. Yeah.

Salina: So all that. And it's very subtle.

Nikki: Yeah. Like, the symbolism, originally, it's subtle. It gets less subtle as it goes on.

Salina: And it's all these things that are symbols, though. Right. Like, these things will be like, you know, so I had another drink, or I had two, or I like. Like that kind.

Nikki: I matched his pace in drinking. Yes.

Salina: So that was, That was all really well done.

Nikki: I think we were on the same page that at the beginning of the book, I thought she was a reliable narrator. And I thought we were almost getting like a.

Sergei: I think the author played on my ignorance with this book

Is this the right. Like a dark hero. Like, she had experienced all of these terrible things in her life, and yet somehow she was gonna make something of herself. She kept working harder, surviving. Like, I just thought, I don't know, short sighted. I realize now, but I thought, okay, this is gonna be an interesting story. But, like, she's. She's definitely short sighted.

Salina: Or you got taken exactly where the author wanted you.

Nikki: I think that's probably right. So she was preying on my ignorance.

Salina: Yeah. I mean this is like.

Nikki: These suckers will buy anything.

Salina: I just caught it.

Nikki: took you right where I wanted you to go.

Salina: I guess we're all ignorant at the start of a book.

Nikki: That's true.

Salina: I, I think this, like that whole first person narration, like across the book, like we're, we're watching her unravel.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know, we're talking about this idea of a, survivor and a thriver. But like another thing that she literally switches over into her own victim.

Nikki: Yes, Yes. I actually think that she lived that way her whole life. So like early in the book, I just referenced this a minute ago. We hear about her grandmother's death and you think this is this tragic thing that happened and she's, I think at this point, like unveiled also that like her mom was gone. And so you're thinking this poor girl, she talks about spending time in the hospital and then finding out she lost her grandmother. But she's also dropping, strategically dropping this lore along the way about her grandmother being a terrible person. She was impossible to live with. She was horrible to them. So then you start to wonder like, wait a minute, what is she trying to. What story is she trying to get me to believe? And I think in her mind she truly was the victim and that she had to take care of these things or else she couldn't survive. And that was just like what she had to do. Well, in this there was no choice, I guess, is what I'm saying.

Salina: And I don't. Yeah, I agree. And I also don't think I thought about this until right now. I don't think. But like basically Marguerite is probably just another grandmother.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Just another obstacle, strong woman figure.

Salina: That she feels like is taking something from her that belongs to her.

Salina: And. And she, and she was taking things from her. As far as we know if we believe that she can be reliable to that extent.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Then she was taking her gardening knowledge and passing it off as her own.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: I guess that's up to the reader to determine how valuable.

Nikki: Fallible. Yeah.

Salina: Valuable that this character really is.

Nikki: So she also, in later in the book, chapter 12, she describes like cleaning out that little home that she. So she's left Jeffrey's house and she's cleaning out her little home. She's gone back to it and it's just full of stuff. And like it's, it's very briefly mentioned that like she comes across the sweater that she was wearing when Marguerite died. At this point, we know the police have A thread of something, presumably this sweater. She comes across this sweater, and the way she frames it is so interesting. She's like, she needs to clean out space. Her house has gotten too constricted, so she needs to clean out space. So she describes donating the sweater. It's not her hiding evidence. It's her donating the sweater because her house is too full. You know, that's what's happening, because you know what the police know. She knows what the police know. But the way she frames it is so interesting. And at some point, she also describes having done that after her grandmother passed away. I can't remember what it was, but something that she donated as well. So, again, it's this idea that hammer.

Salina: With blood on it.

Nikki: Exactly. The narrative becomes truth in her head. in chapter five, she's talking about Marguerite's death, and her quote. This quote's daughter is the first one in the whole book that stuck out to me. In chapter five, she says, I was a woman with good intentions at the wrong place at the wrong time. She genuinely believes these things about herself. in chapter 14, this gets to you, alluding to her unraveling over time. Margaret, she says, Marguerite had told Serge that I had an affair with Jeffrey. She could have told him any outrageous lie. You did have an affair with Jeffrey. That actually happened. That's not a lie. so I definitely think that there was something. Whether she was a sociopath or that she had some sort of other disorder. I definitely think that she believes these things were accidents, that she just happened to have the unfortunate front, seat to m. but in her mind, they happen to her, not by her.

Right. That makes sense. Yeah, it does make sense

Salina: Right.

Nikki: That makes sense.

Salina: Yeah, it does make sense.

Nikki: you want to talk about. You have anything more you want to say about Phoenix?

Salina: I don't. I don't think so. I'm sure other things will come up as we go along.

Okay, so let's talk about Curtis a little bit. I think his character helped us understand Phoenix's childhood

Nikki: Okay, so let's talk about Curtis a little bit. And I think we both had some other things to say about Curtis that maybe I'll come up later. But I wanted to just sort of talk about, like, his relationship with Phoenix and then his presence in the book and how that influences what ultimately happens.

Salina: Yes. So I took a slightly different bend on this question.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: So hopefully I won't get dinged. We'll see. But. We'll see. I see.

Nikki: It's. I have to kick you off the podcast over this.

Salina: I mean, you do what you got.

Nikki: Needs must.

Salina: You know, I. I think his character helped us, as, like, readers understand the instability of Phoenix's childhood and that it was bad enough to result in someone like him. Like, and I don't mean him like as a human, but like someone who's clearly never grown up.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: That was. Whose growth was stunted by something and. Or someone. Someone who is older than Phoenix but has trouble making ends meet. his, part in the book also helps us understand how alone she is. Like, her mom is absent, her dad is dead, her grandmother is dead, and her brother is not reliable in her life. He shows up on a whim. He shows up when it's convenient for him, and he shows up when he needs something. So I think perhaps she was able to see him more clearly than herself, which is what I think you were kind of alluding to a little bit before as well. Like his. His abuse by the grandmother. Like, I think she saw that more clearly than her own. because I think she likely abused by her grandmother as well. Yeah, but she's, like, blocked that out. I think it almost might be what made me think that she might lose time.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Like someone with did does. And for my very, not good understanding of did, I be very clear.

Nikki: Not a psychologist, journalism, barely avid reader and TV watcher.

Salina: Yes. she could see his instability more than her own. But we like Mary Dixie, like, teases out what's unstable about her.

Nikki: Uh-huh.

Salina: She doesn't see that, but she can see Cliff.

Nikki: Uh-huh.

Salina: And then, like, his. Oh, why do I keep calling? I've called him Cliff the whole time. I was like, that's so weird that Marguerite, dies on a cliff. The brother's name is Cliff. I think at the 40 minute point is a great time to tell me that.

Nikki: The first time he said it, I'm not sure it fully registered, or maybe I thought it was.

Salina: Is that the mailman? The best part is your question has his name in it. Damn it. Anywhozie.

So Curtis's relationship with Taylor and his caginess also underscores that he's unreliable

So Curtis's relationship with Taylor and his caginess, like, as the book wears on, also underscores that he is not a trustworthy or reliable person in. In Phoenix's life. So, like, he. He play. He's like, a Schwarzboard of, like, plot devices.

Nikki: Yeah. So. So, yes. And, he was such a confusing.

Salina: And what do you think about Cliff.

Nikki: Under Cliff was such a confusing and underdeveloped character for me. and I think I landed on that being intentional. I think everything you just said makes good sense. That said, I think Phoenix didn't want you to get to know him and she wanted you to See him as unreliable. She wanted you to see him as someone who's always getting himself into scrapes. She's always bailing him out. Then the one time she needs him, he's possibly even turning on her.

Salina: You're right. Because she's. She's martyr complex.

Nikki: Yes. Yes. And I think it served her well for you to think that's the best I could come up with because Curtis is so. His part of the story was so confusing to me. That, that relationship with Taylor. I'm still not sure I fully understand what was happening there. I actually, as I was listening, I was thinking there's no real evidence that he has this close relationship with Taylor. All we find out is that he kind of knew her once in a lifetime. But Phoenix almost builds the story as if he did sell her out to Taylor. She knew that Curtis had told Taylor. We never had any evidence of that. I think Phoenix was paranoid on that front. but she wanted you to see Kurt. Curtis is lucky he lived as long as he did.

Salina: Poor Cliff, to be honest.

How did we feel about Marguerite? And did that change

Nikki: All right, so we've talked Phoenix, we've talked Cliff, Curtis. Let's talk about the dynamics between Phoenix and this family that she's fixated on. Marguerite. How did we feel about Marguerite? And did that change from like the first time we met her at the party to the last time we got to see her?

Salina: No, I think if anything, like, I like, felt worse about her.

Nikki: Oh. Like, okay.

Salina: Yeah. I don't think I ever felt better about her.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: I didn't think there was. Even though Phoenix became like an unreliable narrator, the only person that really seemed to enjoy her authentically was her daughter.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: so I just. Yeah, I. I don't know. We also, again, like, we were just referencing if she really was stealing all of this information and passing it off as her own and not really, like, she doesn't have to give. It wouldn't even make sense. Sense to give Phoenix like this outward credit. But you could do something. You could make her a special consultant. You could do something to make it worth her while and show the appreciation that something like that deserved. That said, for what it's worth, I also agree with Taylor, which she said that Marguerite was still the one with the presence, the one with the Genesee Qua. So like, Phoenix was maybe too damaged for all of that.

Salina: She wasn't gonna be Martha Stewart esque.

Nikki: Yeah. So, yeah. in my mind, the first Marguerite, the first version when we first meet her, she's like larger than life. She's almost Unbelievable. As a. Like, I didn't even register her really as a person. She's more of a personality, more of a thing. so when she was. When she. But I didn't have. She didn't resonate with me in any sort of way. Like, ah, I wasn't an avid Instagram follower or anything of her. So, like, when she's gone, I didn't super miss her. Do you know what I mean? Like, she dies and I'm like, okay, well, that's the next thing that's gonna happen. Like, you don't have time to fall in love with her. so I was like. And then it sort of sounds like she's terrible. Like, So we know Jeffrey had an affair with Phoenix and we believe it's. I think it's pretty clearly stated that Marguerite knew about that. Like, allegedly she told Serge, so she knew that happened. That sucks. Right? but I thought something with Serge was happening with her, so I almost thought that was like.

Salina: I think still might probably. It probably still was, yes. I'm just assuming everyone was sleeping with each other.

Nikki: I thought turnabout was fair play in that instance. So again, like, I really didn't feel bad for her. She just didn't want to lose. So that's why she was so upset about the Phoenix thing. That all of that said when I saw Taylor's pain over losing her, that was super, I thought, authentic. Because we're hearing that through what we now know is Phoenix's sort of like, distorted lens. And it's still very clear that Taylor is torn up over losing her mom. There was something super special that she lost in that relationship. Then I started to feel really bad because I was like, Marguerite was a fully formed person. She made bad choices like everybody does in life. But somebody missed her. Might not have been her husband, might not have been our gardener, but it was her child. And then I started realizing when you learn about Jeffrey and Serge and that they had a thing, maybe she really did get a kind of bad shake of things.

Nikki: Then by the end, I felt bad for her.

Salina: It's also not fun to be a commodity.

Nikki: Yeah, right.

Salina: So, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. Who knows? So then Mary Dixie.

Nikki: Mary Dixie knows.

So let's talk about Taylor. Do you think her hatred of Phoenix was justified

So let's talk about Taylor. who definitely, you said earlier hated Phoenix. did you think that her hatred. I think I know the answer to this from your reaction earlier. Do you think that was justified? Justified? And then how did her reaction make you feel about Phoenix, if anything?

Salina: So Taylor was obviously like a little snot, but I think her feelings were rational and justified. So there were a lot of decisions made by Jeffrey and Phoenix that were very thoughtless and, like, frankly, bizarre. Like, just utterly bizarre. Like, what the hell is, like, what. Passed through my mind a lot. So moving in with each other just weeks after Marguerite dies, asking Phoenix to go as his date, to that, like, memorial. Yes.

Nikki: What a terrible choice. And stupid Jeffrey's like, maybe that was a miscalculation. And I'm like, do you think?

Salina: And then Phoenix trying to, like, mother her.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Like, so she, like, tried and to rub her on the head or something at one point. Then. And then chastises her for setting up her studies in the living room or reupholstering a chair after living there five seconds. Like, I don't know, like, this crazy. Their react. Their interactions made me dislike them both, though.

Nikki: Oh, really?

Salina: Yeah. Like, I under. I. Because I think there was a level of, like, you don't belong here.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: That had to do with her status, too.

Nikki: I agree with that.

Salina: So, like, I. It's fine to be like, hey, my mom's side of the bed hasn't cooled, and you're acting like this is your house. I've lived here my whole life, minus, like, the last year and a half. Like, have you lost it? And please don't ever touch me. I'll feel very, like, fine. But to be like, you don't know which glass to drink out of you, Pavel.

Nikki: Yeah, that feels.

Salina: That's never gonna sit well with me.

Nikki: I get it. So I have nothing to add. That was beautifully put. I. Same. Same.

Salina: Tough, tough stuff.

Rachel suspected Phoenix was involved more than Phoenix was letting on

Nikki: I want to talk about Rachel real quick. The, police person. I don't know, Detective. That's probably the better word. We'll talk about her real quick. and I think it'll be real quick because there really wasn't much to Rachel, but it was clear that. That Rachel suspected Phoenix was involved more than Phoenix was letting on. do you think there was anything in particular that kept Rachel from directly connecting Phoenix with the death? Immediately. It kind of took a long time for us to get to the point where it looked like Phoenix. where Rachel was on Phoenix's doorstep in terms of accusing her. Was there anything in particular? and I can start just so I don't. I'm not, like, totally putting you on the spot. I think it actually might have helped that Jeffrey wasn't pointing the finger at Phoenix or pursuing Phoenix in any way.

Salina: I think we're on the same strand.

Nikki: Yeah. he wasn't Hindering the investigation, but he certainly wasn't sort of, like, pushing it along.

Salina: I don't know.

Nikki: Oh, okay. You don't know that he wasn't hindering.

Salina: Yeah, I don't know that he wasn't doing things to complicate it in the background.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Like, maybe he felt found out Nina was an eyewitness, and maybe he's the one threatening her visa.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Like, you know, we're led to believe that Curtis provided Phoenix with an alibi, at least at first.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: I don't know. There's just so much of that, like, again, the red herring, like, look over here stuff. It's.

Nikki: It's hard to know the true crime part of me. That's exactly what I landed on in terms of, like, what made it hard for her to connect Phoenix. It sort of seemed like. Yeah, it doesn't take a, genius to put it together. Phoenix is having an affair with this woman's husband. Suddenly Marguerite's dead. That feels pretty straightforward. The lack of physical evidence makes it really, really hard. And a lot of unreliable eyewitnesses. So the person who says they saw it saw it from across the lake.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: English wasn't her first language. Jeffrey is telling them nothing. The daughter is over here freaking out over everything. But also, she just lost her mom, so it's hard to build the case, I think was the challenge there.

Salina: Yeah. okay, so Rachel was doing her job.

Nikki: She was trying so hard. She. Her instincts were right. She just didn't have what she needed.

Salina: She was definitely very. Her interactions with Phoenix were interesting.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Because you could tell that there was, like, a M in Phoenix.

Nikki: Telling. Phoenix is telling of it.

Salina: Yes.

You mentioned that Mary Dixie researched gardening to get to this book

Nikki: so themes and symbolism. Wanted to talk just really quickly. I think we've touched on some of this, but gardening. You mentioned that Mary Dixie researched gardening to get to this book. And I just wanted to know if, for you, the gardening piece of it all added anything, took anything away from it. What was your take on that as part of the story?

Salina: Well, I think it gives Phoenix some of that legitimacy that we needed from the beginning. So we know that she does have that much credibility. and I think it kind of helps confuse the reader.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Like, welcome confusion. Confusion that we needed to keep it a mystery.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Hm. It's sort of masking the fact that, at least in the beginning, like, we had every reason to believe her version of this.

Nikki: Sure. Okay. Because she was the expert.

Salina: Right?

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: And then by the end, much more unclear.

Nikki: Yeah. Okay.

Salina: But she knew how to Tend the roses.

Nikki: Right. I think all of that, my first, sentences, I think it made everything feel more legitimate. So I love that we were even using the same words. I think also for me, it set the mood a little bit. So, like, Marguerite had her own rose variety that sets the tone for what a giant she was in this world. and that.

Salina: I'll stop right there and just say that is something that Mary Dixie actually did talk about.

Nikki: Oh, okay.

Salina: She talked about, like, how, like, she wanted Marguerite to be otherworldly and by her having, she was inspired by someone else's. Somebody else or a few other people who had roses named after them or something. And so she knew doing that would elevate that character.

Nikki: One of the rose bushes in my front yard, incidentally, is a Miranda Lambert rose bush. The country singer Walmart had it, and I thought it was pretty, and it was on sale. So. Yeah, I think also the, gardening, was a little bit of setting the mood and the environment, and there was a lot of symbolism m with it because at the very end, Phoenix has designed this beautiful driveway lined by all of these trees.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: It physically sets her apart from the world, which is where she wanted to end up, is separate from this investigation. Part of living alone in her or with Jeffrey, I guess, but kind of alone in her mansion at Rosecliffe, in her mind, belonging. And I think the gardening helped with that.

Salina: just like it feels part and parcel to the gardening is the. In your. Like, with the trees. It's also like the rose itself. Like, roses are an important symbol. This also got brought up in the room that night by my mother, who was in attendance. So. And it was a good point. Like, you know, she asked about whether or not Mary Dixie had thought about the symbol of a rose or whatever. But it is, like, a symbol of beauty and strength and all of these different things.

Nikki: And so that's why Kiss wanted. Why Seal wanted a kiss from a.

Salina: Rose, as we all do, you know, just don't get the thorn. Don't get it.

Nikki: That's right.

Salina: but she, like, you think about this idea of, like, if she's. And this is very telltale heart. Right. Is she's, like, trying to. She's like, setting them on fire.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: And then they just triple inside.

Nikki: I never saw that ending coming. That got wild. That went sideways for me.

Salina: But, like, the roses kept, multiplying.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: And becoming more beautiful. And so some of that just, like, speaks to the. The haunting of Marguerite, like, the way that she embodied that entire home that entire area, all of Rosecliffe, it was hers. And she was never not going to be there. That is, if anyone was. Actually, I guess they were seeing those roses. Right. Because Taylor comes and says. And she's, like, smiling about it. Yeah, these roses. Yeah, the roses were there.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: But we also don't know was. Did Phoenix think that she was doing bad things and she was actually doing good things to the roses?

Nikki: Oh, yeah. I don't know. Right. You know, she thought she was poisoning them, but she was really giving them the best fertilizer possible.

Salina: The best in the world.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know?

Nikki: Yeah.

Question: Describe the lake as a setting in your book

So, this question came from the guide, that I found. And it was when I started writing my response that I realized I'm not sure this was. I don't know how I feel. The lake as a setting. Was it peaceful? Was it eerie? How did it serve the plot? I will tell you, spoiler alert. That the book title was Marguerite by the Lake. I only thought about the lake, like, one or two times. It did not set anything in terms. They talked about the mist coming off the lake once, I think, and then the lady lived across. But, like, it wasn't a living, breathing part of the book to me. So I almost just sort of, like, wrote it off. I didn't think too much about it.

Salina: No, I think, I'm trying to think.

Okay. So one of the things that I'm, um. Is we're talking. So we can still provide an answer. Yeah, that

Okay. So one of the things that I'm, Is we're talking. It's bringing back things that she's talked about about, like her writing process. And she. One of the first scenes I think she wrote was the one where she gets so mad that she just goes and starts walking the lake.

Nikki: Oh, right.

Salina: Which is like, the end, you know? And she was inspired by her friend or something or someone that she knows who got in a fight with her stepdaughter, and she was so mad that she just had to get out. And so I guess in some ways, it kind of served as an escape.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: it was like this eerie thing. It was this beautiful thing. I think it represented different things depending on where we were in the book.

Nikki: Yeah, that's fair. So that's fair.

Salina: So we can still provide an answer.

Nikki: Because we are nothing.

Salina: Mainly, I saw it as.

How did the perception of class affect Phoenix's story

Nikki: Okay, class, the book talked a lot about Phoenix's small. I'm putting that in, quote, small New Haven home versus, like, the huge, exquisite rose Cliff. how much of that distinction was real and how much of it did Phoenix maybe imagine? And then how did the perception of class affect Phoenix's story?

Salina: So I'm when you're saying like, you think the house was real though, right?

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: Yes. Sorry.

Salina: Just like, ah, she saw the house.

Nikki: Yes. And the, the clear distinction between her tiny little house and this beautiful mansion. I'll say my thoughts around this were just like, I'm not sure this chapter of Phoenix's life happens. If she didn't feel some sort of class divide like she. It was clear that she was intrigued by the way kind of the other side of the world lives. She was intrigued by the fact that she lived in this. In. In. We don't really learn how rundown her new Haven home is until Jeffrey comes to visit and she is immediately ashamed of it.

Salina: Right. Because it sounds more like cottagey and.

Nikki: Cute and it talks a lot about certainly. Yeah, yeah. Because it was her grandmother's home. So it's obviously like it's been through some stuff, so maybe also creepy and probably. But I think that that obsession with the rich is kind of what led her into the situation she found herself in.

Salina: Yeah. In retrospect, I was actually wondering if her fixation on the family started at that wedding she went to back in high school.

Nikki: Yes, I think that's right.

Salina: So was she always working her way towards getting in? Yeah, like she needed to work there, she needed to get closer to them.

Nikki: I think that's a hundred percent right.

Salina: Well, there you go.

Nikki: And every situation that Phoenix finds herself in that is somehow not comfortable for her seems to end in death. So I think she. She thought this is what she wanted. She had to find a way to get there. It wasn't feeling the way she wanted it to. So she murdered someone for two someones.

Salina: Well, it's a very common.

Nikki: It's just what you. You do what you have to do. You know what I mean?

Salina: Do we need to talk about the painting? Oh, sure

Salina: I wanted to know on the themes and symbolism then. Do we need to talk about the painting?

Nikki: Oh, sure, we can.

Salina: Okay. Yeah, sure. So why not one.

Nikki: That was one biggest one. Like you said, the, the painting was the Telltale Heart and so it was always this living, breathing thing throughout the book. I was, I. I'm just darn curious about this thing. So like, if you've ever seen. We were talking about this recently with family. If you've never seen the Mona Lisa in person, you think, you think it's going to be enormous. You think it's this gigantic canvas and it is this larger than life painting and then you see it in real life and it is a postage stamp.

Salina: She is a tiny tot.

Nikki: It is a postage Stamp, and it's surrounded by thousands of people, and so it looks even smaller. I want to know if the Marguerite by the lake painting was that or if it was actually big and imposing.

Salina: I'll use another Louvre reference.

Nikki: Do it.

Salina: I think it's more like the Nike statue.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: You know, I think it's. I think it is big.

Nikki: It's big.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: I just. I just don't live that life. So I'm, like, trying to imagine, like, me even having a,

Nikki: Painting of yourself.

Salina: Yeah. So that.

Nikki: It's a bold choice.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: I'm just not sure that's. That's for me. But, like, when I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror, I'm like.

Nikki: Hey, now I will say if someone had painted the. A world famous photo. A world famous portrait of me, this.

Salina: Is what gets different. And also, I'll point you to what we get to hear from Mary Dixie about why it connects to her mom.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: And in that instance, I. I get it. I get it much more.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: You will hear what that's all about. But, like, I'm just trying for. For me. I mean, there's a lot of things that people do that aren't for me, and they're not right or wrong. It's just like, I don't even really have any pictures of me.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know?

Nikki: Yeah. I know what I look like. Unfortunately. I don't need more photos of it. Do you know what I mean?

Salina: I do. Even though when you say it, I'm like, no.

Nikki: And then when you say it, I'm like, yeah, that pretty face on the.

Salina: Wall put it up there. So we have not problems. so the painting. Am I right?

Nikki: You're right. Is there anything more you want to say about the painting?

Salina: Just that it was her guilt.

Nikki: Just that.

Salina: Just that it was. And I thought it was, like, really, like, that was the kind of, like, where we cross over from mystery to, like.

Nikki: Oh.

Salina: You know what I'm saying?

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: almost like horror or something, you know, gothic. almost gothic, if you will. Just like, her coming. Like, that was. It was so well written. And that makes me think about what you're saying at the top. Like, you needed to be concrete enough that people can see it, but not so concrete that they can't make up some of the details themselves.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: And in that respect, it was pretty perfect.

Nikki: Yeah. we need. We're gonna need to move this along, Salina.

The ambiguity and, you know, just so much of the book was unresolved

So, I wanted to really quickly ask you.

Salina: Are we on the third hour?

Nikki: It's getting Close.

Salina: Okay, perfect.

Nikki: The ambiguity and, you know, just so much of the book was just up for interpretation or unresolved. And I was just curious if it affected your interpretation or appreciation. And I think you just sort of gave the example of the painting being that it kind of made the story better because it was open. But was there anything else in the ambiguity that struck you? Hm.

Salina: Only that I just think it worked. I think it worked for what we were trying to achieve here. I. I took this. This. This whole part, I, Of the book, that ambiguous ambiguity. I appreciate it. I think it makes things more interesting. It's giving us three hours worth of something to talk about. and when you think about an investigation and someone trying to piece of crime together, isn't this what it must feel like? Yeah, you know. You know, some things, maybe even a lot of things, but you probably don't know even more things. And so trying to make them into a coherent story that will also hold up in court is a, tall order.

Nikki: It is.

Salina: So my part for this was that I just thought of it as, like, here's the questions that I couldn't answer that I was like, ah, okay. So I can run down through those. If you agree, do it. And I will do it quickly. All right.

Nikki: Do it with speed.

Salina: And then maybe Mary Dixie wants to answer them.

Nikki: That would be great.

Is Phoenix a big old murderer? There's ambiguity around Marguerite Taylor

Salina: So here's my top unanswered questions. Is Phoenix a big old murderer? There's ambiguity, ambiguity around Marguerite Taylor and even her grandma's death. Like, and her.

Nikki: I would add her dad.

Salina: And her dad.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Her mom.

Nikki: Yeah, that's true.

Salina: Everyone.

Nikki: That's true.

Salina: No, the ending is the insinuation that she burns the whole ding dang thing to the ground. I don't know.

Nikki: Yeah, you're like, yes. No, no. I, Agreeing that, yes, that is ambiguous.

Salina: I. I'm not sure.

Nikki: I'm not sure either.

Salina: She killed everyone.

Nikki: And where'd the fire come from?

Salina: Her. Her inner darkness.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: I don't know.

Nikki: They never said like, and you don't need to spell everything out, but it wasn't like, there wasn't a lighter that was mentioned anywhere. And there was no, like, she ran back in the house to get whatever. So I. What I wasn't sure of is if you.

Salina: I don't,

Nikki: I don't think so. I listen to the audiobook on 1.5 though, so.

Salina: Right, okay. So were these plot points all just red herrings or something more? And so these are ones where I'm like, I'm Pretty sure they're red herrings, but maybe I missed something.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: that a reread would help with, but Helen's obsession with Redcliffe and the fact that that used to be her family's land, that was something.

Nikki: Good Lord, I gotta correct you this time.

Salina: Please do. Is it?

Nikki: I don't want you to be mad at me later.

Salina: Nina's green card talk.

Nikki: Uh-huh.

Salina: Joffrey's many, many, motives. We have the evidence of affairs, evidence of the significant relationship with Serge, his relationship with Russ, and some sort of shady dealings with Greenway that never really gets tied up. Obsession with losing money in the wake of Marguerite's death. Like there's something there, that's not left unexplored.

Nikki: M. Curtis.

Salina: not Cliff.

Nikki: Not Cliff.

Salina: It is Cliff here, though, in my notes.

Nikki: Perfect.

Salina: Cliff's notes, if you will.

All of the ambiguity in Phoenix's book serves her well, I think

Anyways, the urgent text that led to nothing, were those texts even real? Or. My God, were they in Phoenix's head? His relationship with Taylor, what were his motives? I'm curious if Mary Dixie always knew the end of the book or if she discovered it as she wrote. Oh, and does she even know if Phoenix is the killer or not? Oh, those are all my questions.

Nikki: All very good questions. And I will say, all of the ambiguity, and I want to say, all those examples you just gave, don't they all serve Phoenix well? Doesn't it all serve her that you can't answer any of those questions? So all the questions around Jeffrey, I think that definitely speaks to how little Phoenix knew about him.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: She didn't know anything about this man.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: and I think that they all serve her. They're all far from incontrovertible. Right. So there's no evidence one way or the other. We could never prove this 100 happened. This 100 didn't happen. And I think that all actually just serves her well.

Salina: Right. In the book. In the reader hunt.

Nikki: The book.

Were you surprised or satisfied with the ending of the book

so getting toward the end, were you surprised? Were you satisfied?

Salina: Yes and yes. Okay, so it's pretty clear someone else's motives were in the mix and that someone or someone's had seen something when Marguerite died. But, like. Like I knew all that was there, but it wasn't exactly clear to me, like, who that would wind up being. Like, because it could have gone in so many different directions. I could have seen her using any one of those pathways. so, yeah, I mean, all around, like,

Nikki: Hm.

Salina: I was definitely surprised. I knew he was a piece of crap. And you.

Nikki: It's just really obvious Several. On several different occasions. It's really obvious.

Salina: Yes. And it gets worse.

Nikki: It gets worse over time, for sure. I will say, agree with everything you just said. I did want Taylor to get some kind of revenge because I just really. As the story went on, I felt more and more. I felt more and more bad for this girl.

Salina: Yeah. She was really going through it.

Nikki: She was going through it and then got hit by a car. I feel like she deserved something. And I kind of felt like Phoenix deserved to get what was coming to her. I guess ultimately, if she was her own demise, maybe that's the ultimate revenge. But, well.

Salina: And like. So Taylor, not living, though, is, like, probably the only thing that will ever really take Jeffrey down.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So he has to live with that for the rest of his life.

Nikki: And he definitely went. He spiraled. Yeah. That was acknowledged in that last chapter that he was a ghost sort of haunting the house now, Right? Yeah.

Salina: Kind of like a, prison sentence.

Nikki: Yeah. Yeah.

How does the story resolve? Or does it. Um, and then I think you just mentioned some of this

and then I think you just mentioned some of this. but I had a question here. How does the story resolve? Or does it.

Salina: Yeah. What do you think?

Nikki: So I took it as Phoenix dies. I took it as Phoenix dies and she takes the whole house down with her. And Jeffrey, I think, in that last chapter, was trapped. So I think he went with it.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: So I think that entire dark situation is gone.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: I don't know what happened.

Salina: Helen takes the house back.

Nikki: Helen takes a cliff. I bet Curtis takes it.

Salina: Whose cliff?

Nikki: I feel like Curtis takes it.

Salina: Yeah. Be cliff. Cliffs.

Nikki: Name it. Cliffs.

Salina: Could have red cliff. And.

Nikki: But it feels pretty resolved there at the end. so I felt. I felt like the.

Speaker C: It was.

Nikki: It was a strange last chapter. That's not where I was expecting it to go. I knew Phoenix was gonna die. I knew that was coming.

Salina: So I had a.

Silver: It could be fun. I didn't know if we're gonna do that thing

My question, Silver. I didn't know if we're gonna do that thing where she winds up in another country.

Nikki: Oh.

Salina: You know, and she's like, at a cafe.

Nikki: Yeah. Oh, she looks. You know what I'm saying?

Salina: And it's. Oh, what if she was at a cafe? And then she looks over, she tips her glasses down and it's Marguerite.

Nikki: Oh, you just wrote the sequel.

Salina: Oh, shoot.

Nikki: Marguerite.

Salina: And they just. You guys can't see. But I wink. She.

Nikki: In a very uncomfortable way. She did.

Salina: You're fine if you're uncomfortable. I can't do anything about that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Nikki: That would have been. That's a very fascinating sequel.

Salina: yeah. So it's a little trite, but it could be fun.

Nikki: It could be fun.

If ending the Line of the Grays is resolved, then we use

Salina: So my actual thing. I answered your question with a question which is like, what's your decision? Resolved.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: You know.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: If ending the Line of the Grays is resolved, they're done and they die, then, yeah, we use. That's all sewn up.

Nikki: But Serge is screwed because he has. His famous painting is gone now.

Salina: Yeah. I mean, like, in all honesty, though, I think my answer is it's not resolved. And that's kind of awesome.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: I don't know. So, like, you know, I tend to think in TV series format.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: so for me, I'm all.

Nikki: That's your million.

Salina: Season two, apparently.

Nikki: When is that coming?

Salina: Cafe. I didn't have that until today. So. Is she dead? Will there be more chaos? Was there a little baby she had? We, Like, we didn't see it.

Nikki: Curtis comes and digs up the painting and then he glues it all back together.

Salina: Oh, yes.

Nikki: To what end? I don't know. That's as far as I've made it.

Salina: I don't know.

Nikki: We'll see where it starts.

Salina: It was just all back together. Oh, yeah.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: And sitting in the chair by Marguerite. at the cafe. At the cafe in Paris. You know, Anyways, very Dixie. I mean, what we have here for you is guilt.

Nikki: We've got cult. We have some thoughts.

Salina: You wrote a beautiful book. And we're like, here's a crappy tv.

Nikki: It's not even for the major networks.

Salina: We got you, Bill.

Salina, would you recommend this book to whom?

Nikki: Okay, let's talk final thoughts. Salina, would you recommend this book? And if so, to whom?

Salina: Yeah, I mean, for sure, I would. Mystery, lovers. Thriller lovers. Especially those who like a psychological slant.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: So I will be recommending this book as those kinds of conversations come up for sure.

Nikki: As you're, The darkness of human psyche conversations come up.

Salina: These are really. It's daily, every day.

Nikki: I would also add to that. Yes, agree with all that. I would add to that that this would be a great, like, fall book to read. Like a cozy time book. This wasn't necessarily the most summery beach read. To me.

Salina: That's fair.

Nikki: This is more of a put on a blanket and sit in the darkness with a fire going.

Salina: Oh, that's what I do in the summer.

Nikki: You really gotta. Yeah. We're different people. We're different people.

Salina: Like, it's 90,000 degrees outside. I'll see you guys in.

Nikki: She doesn't December. so I would add that and then also I would add tr. There's a little bit of a true crime element to it. Like you mentioned, it goes that it goes off the rails at the end. It's not so much true crime anymore. But like, if you're into that, I think there's a little bit of that too that you might like. Anything else you want to add before I wrap us up?

Salina: Only that you can't know the light without knowing the dark. Okay. That's what you wanted to know, right?

Nikki: That was it.

Salina: You said anything.

Nikki: Anything. It's so true. I will learn my lesson one day.

Salina: And I also roasted corn for the first time. First time today. Yep. You said it was delicious.

Nikki: Well, I'm gonna learn the open ended question isn't for you. Today's not that day. So, I'll wrap us up and say again a huge thank you to Mary Dixie Carter for reaching out to us and inviting us to her book release event. Honestly, like, at the risk of sounding like a, fan girl or whatever, it's just really special that someone of her caliber thought of us and reached out to us and such a testament to what you do on social media to connect with people. So thank you. Thank you, Mary Dixie.

Salina: It was really, it was really awesome. So that's cool. Much appreciated. And yeah, like just the whole thing was a surreal experience, top to bottom.

Nikki: That's cool. So if you guys want to follow her on Instagram, she's at Mary Dixie Carter. M A R Y D I X I E Carter.

Sweet Tea interviews Mary Dixie Carter about her new novel Gothic Town

so Salina's been dropping snippets from m that interview she did with her at the book release event on our social media. if you want to actually see the interview, we're going to drop the audio at the end of this episode so that you can hear it. Shameless. This is the Shameless plug part of, the episode. Follow up with us. Share your thoughts with us. Let us know if you, you know, if you do read the book. Did you have any favorite lines or twists or interpretations? What did you think we got right about our interpretation? That's all. What did you think we got right? There's no room for debate here. No, I'm just kidding.

Salina: She also has a second book, the Photographer. This was actually. The Photographer was actually her first book. did we talk about that at the beginning? I just.

Nikki: No, we did not.

Salina: I thought I would just plug it in case, if people like is on my bookshelf and it is, something I plan to read.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: I, think they. It's another one of Those, like, outsider experience kind of things. So I think there's some shared experience there.

Nikki: So you'll loan it to me when you're done?

Salina: 100.

Nikki: Thank you.

Salina: Library.

Nikki: It's half mine. And then, of course, if you guys have an idea for a future book club. So you mentioned Gothic Town. I wrote Gothica, so that's not right. It's called Gothic Town. That sounds right, right? She has to scroll a lot. but that might be a future book idea. Or if you have one for us, you can email us sweettvpodgmail.com. or you can message us on, any of the socials, Sweet Tea and tv.

Salina: Gothic Town.

Nikki: Gothic Town. Okay.

Salina: Gothica, I believe, was a movie with Halle Bear.

Nikki: That's correct. That it didn't seem right to me, but I went with it and just barreled right through. Gothic tone. so what's next for us, Salina, is that we have a whole new season. Sweet.

Salina: TNT be coming in a new direction for the podcast.

Nikki: It totally new direction. We're noodling with it and trying to figure out how we're going to make it work. But what I can promise you is that it's going to be golden. I have so many of these. I'm so prepared. so in the meantime, as you're catching up on our old seasons, and I look at the metrics, people are still downloading our old episodes, which is fantastic. So if you're catching up on things, please be sure to leave us a rating or review wherever you listen. And, then make sure you're subscribed. So you're the first one to know when all our new episodes are out. Sometime in October. Yeah. You know what that means?

Salina: Spooky season. Spooky.

Nikki: Perfect for Gothic Town.

Salina: Maybe,

Nikki: You know what that means, Salina?

Salina: What does that mean, Nikki?

Nikki: We'll see around the page. Turn.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: Oh, or maybe we'll just see around the page.

Salina: okay. All right, bye. M. Okay. Sweet Tea and TV is so pleased to be here with Mary Dixie Carter. Yes, Mary Dixie Carter is the daughter of Dixie Carter, who played the iconic Julia Sugarbaker on Designing Women for seven seasons. We're thrilled by that. But more importantly and most importantly, we are also thrilled by the release of her new novel. Her second novel, this one is Marguerite by the Lake, and she is going to let us know a little bit about it and some other tidbits about her mom and Designing Women.

You were inspired by your mother when writing the book Marguerite

First up, can you tell us just a little bit about how you were inspired by your mom when you Were writing the book?

Speaker C: Yes. Well, my mother had a very, close friend who was an Italian painter. And they were friends for 50 years. And over the course of those years, he painted her many times. And, after my mother died, I would go back to the home that she and my stepfather, Hal Holbrook shared. And, when I would visit, I walked into the house. And every time it felt like my mother was still there in the house. And I think a lot of that had to do with portraits of her that were prominently hung throughout the house. Like in the living room, in the gallery, in the dining room. The portraits, her close friend had painted of her were everywhere. so in the book Marguerite, there is a portrait of Marguerite that is hanging over the fireplace. And it's in the book, the world of the book. It's a world famous portrait. And so even after Marguerite dies, Marguerite is still wielding power through this painting. And she dominates everyone's lives, continues to dominate everyone's lives. And every character in the book is, reacting to her at all times. And, so my mother does not. In most respects, my mother does not resemble Marguerite or Marguerite does not resemble my mother. But there's something about those portraits and, that similarity of my mother's presence in the house. And I kind of, like, channeled all of that into this book and into Marguerite's presence, and Marguerite's continued power.

Salina: Very cool.

Back in season three of Designing Women, you played Delta Burke's niece

Okay, so back in season three of Designing Women, you actually played your mom, niece in the world of the show. I know that has been a few years or so, but do you have any, like, strong memories of what that experience was like or did anything from that time really stick with you?

Speaker C: yes. All of it stuck with me. I mean, it was amazing, Amazing week that I spent, on the set of Design Women. And I. I already was close with a lot of the, the act. Well, specifically Delta Burke, I was close with. And Linda Bloodworth Thomason. and in fact, Delta, I was Delta's, bridesmaid in her wedding. but it was, it was a joyous week. I remember seeing that red cape for the first time. That red cape that I wore, like that, and the, like the whole red ensemble. And I was like, this is so cute. I just love this outfit. And I loved the whole premise, which was when I first read it through at the table reading that I'm supposed to be like Suzanne Sugarbaker. And I'm supposed to be. To be the young version of Delta Burke. And Delta, who I love and love her Acting and everything. so that was a treat. I'm, Ah. I got to kind of emulate this spirit. Not that I was trying to copy her acting or anything, but the spirit of Delta's Suzanne Sugarbaker. It was really, really fun. and. And the whole thing was fun. And, you know, that was like a. A very special time.

Salina: I love that. And, I love that you were in Delta Burke's Wedding. I didn't realize that.

Nikki: That's amazing.

Speaker C: I, Actually, because my mother and Delta Burke did Filthy Rich before they did Designing Women.

Salina: Right.

Speaker C: also Linda Bloodworth. And, so they were friends. And I knew Delta, you know, for all the years in between the two shows, too. And I. In fact, Delta came to stay with us when my mother was traveling. so Delta was sort of like, you know, a big sister, aunt something, you know.

Salina: That is very sweet.

Is there any Southern tradition that you've taken from your mom and ran with

So we've been fortunate enough to read your mom's book. And, in our view, she, in a beautiful way, is, like, unapologetically Southern, you know, and really puts a spotlight and shine up on her Southern roots and what that meant to her. And we were just curious, is there any Southern tradition or just tradition that you've taken from your mom and ran with?

Speaker C: well, there are many. And I'm just gonna name a couple of things that I don't know if you call these traditions exactly, but my mother, felt strongly that you should always make everyone else feel good about themselves. And one thing I'm just remembering is, you should never ask anyone what they do for a living, because it's a rude question. And there's implied in that, is that you're going to somehow judge them based on what they do for a living. And what if they don't want to share that at the moment? What if they're unemployed at the moment? There's a million different reasons you should never ask someone what they do for a living. so. And also, you know, there's. There's a. Ah.

Speaker C: Along with that is just that your goal should be to make the other person in the room feel special and feel wanted and feel good about themselves. so that's one thing which I find is a little Southern because it's. I mean, not that people in other parts of the country don't do that. Of course they do. But there are a lot of Southerners who, like, that's their sort of their modus operandi. That's like. That's what they try to do. and my mother definitely did that. another thing, that pops into my mind is, like, the dinner table. She was very particular about the dinner table, and it was like an event. She set the table a certain way. She had specific silver and crystal wine glasses and, specific china and flowers. And for every dinner. For, every dinner, like, it did not matter if someone was coming over or not. And, she used her good crystal and silver, and she used all of that. She used it every day. And she said, the most important people are your family. They're the ones who should have the good silver. You shouldn't just bring out the good silver for some guests that are coming over. The most important people in your lives are your family. so I think that was smart of her and good advice.

Speaker C: And, you know, that stuck with me. I'm not sure that I, do it to the extent that she did, but I. I, got the message.