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Designing Women S2 E19 - No Pigs Allowed

Updated: Jul 3, 2023

What happens when you cross a pet pig, beauty titles, and a few pesky divorces with an exclusive, Old South country club? Well, you might not get invited to join. Poor Suzanne has her eyes set on an elite membership, but her big-mouthed sister (...and impending financial ruin…and a few other things…) may be standing in her way. But maybe that’s not such a bad thing?

After the show, let’s have a little “Extra Sugar” - where we’ll spill the tea on country clubs. We’ll talk a bit about the history and breakdown some of the “-ism” claims Julia makes against Beaumont.

If you want to learn more, here were some of our sources:

Come on, let’s get into it!



Salina: Hello, Nikki.

Nikki: Hey.

Nikki: Wasn't prepped for Cinderella Salina?

Salina: I mean, wasn't this?

Nikki: I don't know, I was you had your arms out.

Nikki: Snow White.

Nikki: Is Snow White the one all the birds fly to?

Nikki: Her or Ace Ventura?

Nikki: I guess I kind of think I'm.

Salina: Much more like Ace Ventura if we're going to put me in a category than Snow White.

Salina: But yes, I think it's any Disney princess is likely to have, like, a bird land on them, which I would enjoy until it pooped on me.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: Which is the kind of princess I would be.

Nikki: That would be bad.

Salina: Yeah, you can cut out the la la laws.

Salina: I just felt like I needed to get it out.

Nikki: Now I'm leaving them.

Nikki: The people need to know.

Salina: Well, welcome to Sweet tea and TV.

Salina: Hey, guys, the cod passed about.

Salina: La la la.

Salina: And stop playing.

Nikki: Nope.

Nikki: We're going on.

Nikki: We're carrying on.

Nikki: It's too hard to get back to that window.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Before we get into today's episode, every day I sound like I'm drinking.

Salina: I'm not.

Salina: Guys, I'm not.

Nikki: She hasn't touched the the hard stuff.

Salina: In years, not days.

Salina: I just wanted to ask you a question.

Salina: Just a random, no proost question.

Salina: We're done with that.

Salina: But I thought just something sweaty, then, I don't know, natural.

Nikki: It's a me problem, not a you problem.

Salina: I mean, I'm sweating all the time.

Salina: We've had this conversation before.

Salina: Been cold all day and also sweaty.

Salina: Welcome to January.

Nikki: No, that sounds like Icicle City.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: I sweat.

Nikki: Sickle question.

Salina: So I just wanted to know because I'm hungry.

Salina: Been trying some intermittent fasting.

Salina: So talk to me about food.

Salina: I want to know, you've talked about pineapple casserole before, but does your family have, like, any secret recipes?

Salina: Yes, for real?

Salina: What secret can you obviously I can't know the ingredients, but can you just.

Nikki: Talk about what the recipes are?

Nikki: Yes.

Nikki: I have two that first came to mind.

Salina: One.

Nikki: Secret only in the sense that meatloaf, my mom's meatloaf, is the only meatloaf in the world I enjoy.

Nikki: And there's nothing fantastically special about it, except it's not ketchup based and it's one pound of ground beef and one pound of ground sausage.

Nikki: I want to share this with the world.

Nikki: Oh, I want to share this.

Nikki: When you say secret recipe, I'm thinking of just like the thing we do the same way every single time.

Nikki: That is so special and that's uncommon to make meatloaf that way.

Nikki: So my family does it that way.

Nikki: The other one I have is a funny story because my grandmother so my mom's mom made the most delicious biscuits in the world.

Nikki: That was like any holiday gathering, and she made them, I think, twice a day.

Nikki: And they had a family of six kids.

Nikki: So all the whole time my mom was growing up as an adult, my grandmother made biscuits all the time.

Salina: Like for breakfast and dinner.

Nikki: I think that's right.

Nikki: I think that's right.

Salina: What a time to be alive, I'm telling you what.

Nikki: And she and my grandfather lived into their she lived into her early eighty s and my grandfather into his ninety s, I think.

Nikki: And these were like legit biscuits, lard and whatnot.

Nikki: Anyway, so a few years ago, I thought I would surprise my mom by getting her a cutting board with the recipe sort of emblazoned on it.

Nikki: The problem is, my grandmother's been gone for a long time.

Nikki: My mom doesn't have the recipe.

Nikki: She just says, my mom had this really special recipe, but your aunt can make them.

Nikki: So I reached out to my aunt and she goes, oh, it's just the recipe that was on the back of the red band flour bag.

Salina: I feel like that's what normally happens.

Salina: Yes, that was going to be my input.

Salina: Like my mom being like your grandma, and she's talking about not her mom, but my dad's mom has the best.

Salina: It's called oodle doodle chicken noodle soup or something.

Salina: And I'm like, I think that's Campbell's.

Salina: I don't understand.

Nikki: To be fair, my grandmother would eyeball everything.

Nikki: So I think she started with that general recipe, and then over time, it was almost muscle memory.

Nikki: But the really funny part is that by the time my aunt told me this, redband had been like way out of production for years.

Nikki: And I have spent years trying to find this recipe.

Nikki: Countless Google searches I have tried to find, like on ebay where you can buy old bags, like old whatever.

Nikki: I can't find it.

Nikki: So if anybody listening has a Red band bag laying around, I would love to know, because that was my grandmother's super secret biscuit recipe.

Salina: Well, now it is super secret.

Salina: You can't find it.

Nikki: It's true.

Nikki: It's true.

Nikki: What about you guys?

Salina: Oodle doodle.

Nikki: Noodle soup.

Salina: The thing is, my mom actually can cook, but she decided to pick that habit up after I wasn't in the house anymore.

Nikki: Oh, dang.

Salina: In her defense, she was a single working mom.

Salina: It's all good.

Nikki: Are you saying she couldn't find time to nourish you with food?

Nikki: Between her multiple jobs, she could is that what you're saying?

Salina: Through McDonald's.

Nikki: And you know what?

Nikki: She deserved that.

Salina: Yeah, I mean, it's like totally cool.

Salina: She did what she could.

Salina: She would have like two and three jobs.

Salina: So, you know, I think I kid her now because, I mean, I recall like maybe four times that she actually sat down and like, we shouldn't sit down, but like, where she was like, you know what, I'm going to legit make dinner or something.

Salina: But the other thing is that she is kind of like me.

Salina: And once she takes something on, she'll be like, you know what?

Salina: This Thanksgiving, I'm going to make a 16 layer cake.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So instead of being like, hey, mom, can I not mom isn't her, but mom is in her mom.

Salina: Can I help you with any of the stuff that you already have going on?

Salina: She helped out by making a 16 layer cake.

Nikki: I see.

Salina: And it's beautiful.

Salina: I recall watching this as a child.

Salina: Oh, I think I'm going to get in trouble for this one.

Salina: But I recall watching my grandma move around and make all of Thanksgiving dinner in the time that it took my mom to make that cake or pie.

Nikki: Or whatever it was.

Salina: In the meantime, flash forward many years later, I'm getting married, and in the time it takes me to do a candy table, mom decorates the entire wedding.

Nikki: I was just as you were describing that for some reason you were coming to mind for me because I am her singularly focused person.

Salina: Right.

Salina: Or you mean like everything that you.

Nikki: And I do together?

Salina: You're your mom, you have to you.

Nikki: Hear that, Mama Salina?

Salina: Yep.

Salina: So she'll love hearing it.

Salina: Maybe.

Nikki: That's great.

Salina: Are you hungry as I am now?

Nikki: I am.

Nikki: I want some meatloaf.

Nikki: I did make meatloaf earlier this week.

Nikki: The super secret family recipe.

Salina: So my thing about meatloaf is before we get an episode is very important.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Is.

Salina: Like, I like the ones that use stuffing.

Salina: I know.

Salina: There's also the ones that use I mean still meat.

Nikki: What is this you're talking about?

Salina: Really?

Nikki: No idea.

Salina: What do you use to bind the meat?

Nikki: Breadcrumbs.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Stuffing.

Salina: Breadcrumbs.

Salina: Oh, you think, like, I should have just said breadcrumbs, but like, I wish.

Nikki: You had just said breadcrumbs.

Nikki: Now I'm imagining Thanksgiving.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Breadcrumbs.

Salina: I'm sorry.

Salina: I'm sorry.

Nikki: But then, like, you're disgusting human being.

Salina: You've seen some people do it with oatmeal before, though.

Nikki: Oh, it's the binder.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: So not as big of a fan for that.

Salina: That's my difference on that.

Nikki: We're on the same page.

Nikki: When I was growing up, my stepdad and my mom would make it with we always had white bread.

Nikki: Growing up.

Nikki: I never have white bread in my house as an adult.

Nikki: Even with kids, we have, like, the white wheat or whatever.

Nikki: But growing up, we always had white bread.

Nikki: So they would take actual slices of bread.

Salina: Was it sunbeam?

Nikki: Sometimes bunny bread was, like, weirdly.

Nikki: My favorite for a glimmer of time in my childhood.

Salina: I feel like maybe we've talked about this twice on here now.

Nikki: Sorry about that, guys.

Salina: You're welcome.

Nikki: Moving on.

Nikki: I use the breadcrumbs from the canister, just like the shelf stable ones, but they would use actual bread.

Nikki: So even going to eat I make the same meatloaf my parents make and even going to eat at their house to this day, it still tastes different and better than even what I make.

Salina: Yeah, you didn't cook it.

Nikki: That's true.

Nikki: That's a good point.

Salina: Casey will make a sandwich and I'm like, oh, this sandwich?

Salina: Yeah, because I sat there and he made it.

Nikki: I have told Kyle coffee doesn't taste better than when someone else makes it?

Salina: Yes, absolutely.

Nikki: I make coffee every single day of my life, and I never enjoy it as much as I do on, like, a Sunday when he makes me a cup.

Nikki: Yeah, it's just better.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Speaking of better.

Nikki: That was a nice transition.

Nikki: Thank you.

Nikki: Good.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Speaking of better, we have a whole episode about people who think they're better than other people.

Salina: Love it.

Nikki: So this is Designing Women's season two, episode 19, the Incredibly Elite Bona Fide Blue Blood Driving Club.

Nikki: So Hulu says that Suzanne is thrilled when she and Julia are asked to join the exclusive Beaumont Driving Club.

Nikki: But her excitement is temporarily dissipated when Julia expresses dislike for the club's discriminatory practices.

Nikki: IMDb says Suzanne applies for membership of the Beaumont Driving Club, the most exclusive country club in Atlanta, and files an application for Julia on her behalf.

Nikki: However, Julia doesn't want to belong to the club because of the type of exclusivity she believes they represent when they accept her, but not Suzanne.

Nikki: She lets them know what to do with the application.

Nikki: It aired on February 15, 1988.

Nikki: I really enjoyed those summaries.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: That first one, her dislike for the discriminatory practices, that is like a super boiled down version of what actually goes on in the episode.

Salina: That's true.

Salina: I just like she lets them know what to do with that.

Nikki: I like that too.

Nikki: That's a perfect level of SAS.

Nikki: Do you think again, I think you've brought this up before that maybe the IMDb ones are sometimes written by users.

Salina: Maybe sometimes.

Salina: Maybe always.

Nikki: Okay, perfect.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: IMDb, are you looking for staff?

Nikki: So this one was written don't come to us.

Nikki: Go to the people in the comments.

Nikki: This one was written by LBT and directed by Matthew Diamond.

Nikki: All right, that's me rubbing my hands together.

Nikki: Let's get into it.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: I prefer to start with stray observations because I just have so many.

Salina: Oh, get in there.

Nikki: Now that I've said that, I'm going to feel really silly when I jump in and you're like, these are really stray.

Nikki: I'm going to start, though, that I feel like a Garfield piggy bank is, like, totally on brand for Mary Joe.

Nikki: So she talks about how there's something about Julius, says something about her son Quint, and like, there's something you know, at this age, money takes on a special significance.

Nikki: And there's something about that piggy bank.

Nikki: And Mary Joe's like, he doesn't have a piggy bank.

Nikki: I do.

Nikki: He's got stocks and bonds.

Nikki: I have a piggy bank, except mine's Garfield, but it's like one of the really big ones.

Nikki: I can so imagine her having a Garfield piggy bank.

Salina: Yeah, I guess I hadn't really thought.

Nikki: About it, but I told you it was stray.

Salina: I'm just trying to figure I'm trying to give you something.

Nikki: Lasagna carrying on the names we had biddy, Stone, Cipher, sissy, Davis and Muffin.

Nikki: Farronholt in this episode, biddy and Sissy Davis.

Salina: So Sissy is also it's a fine name, but I'm just saying it goes really well with the biddy.

Nikki: Oh, I see what you're saying.

Nikki: We have Anthony running errands for Suzanne again, which, you know, does not thrill me.

Nikki: Yeah, he's tried so like a few episode a few episodes ago, the last episode, he was on that Reggie Mac wanted poster as the contact man.

Nikki: Now he's returning her dior suits every time.

Salina: I'm like, do you not remember stranded Suzanne?

Salina: You guys are like on the same level.

Salina: Yeah, you've always been on the same level, but I thought you recognized it now.

Salina: And then you go back.

Nikki: I'm back to hashtag justice for Anthony.

Nikki: I just really feel like he needs some justice.

Nikki: Did you notice that one of the women on the membership committee was Logan Huntsberger's mother from Gilmore Girls?

Salina: No, I guess one of the younger ones that goes to Suzanne's house.

Nikki: I don't think I can't remember.

Salina: Oh, I'll have to go back and take a closer look.

Nikki: I can't remember.

Salina: I think I was too caught up in the names and the fact that any place in the world needs two biddies.

Salina: Take that however you want.

Salina: But like, not one, but two.

Nikki: Do you have any strays or should I just keep going?

Salina: So the names were on mine.

Salina: One of my strays is noel is back.

Salina: That's a pig.

Salina: Or as we like to call her, Noel.

Salina: For all those times we for the second time we've talked about her and then don't talk to me, Garfield.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: This is my only other stray.

Salina: Julia, Mary Joe think Quint, who's seven, is too young for a metal detector.

Salina: Am I missing something parent on the panel?

Nikki: All I can think of is metal detectors are just really long.

Nikki: Maybe it's just too tall for him.

Salina: Like a trip over it.

Nikki: Yeah, I have no idea.

Nikki: That was a weird.

Nikki: I really feel like metal detectors have come up a few times when it comes to Quentin.

Nikki: I feel like this is not the first time we've heard of them.

Nikki: I did not do the legwork to find out.

Nikki: But speaking of random things that maybe have come up previously, mary Joe's story about the bidet at her country club.

Nikki: Do you remember way back in the pilot episode when she had no idea what a bidet was?

Salina: Oh, no, way back in the I.

Nikki: Think it was the pilot.

Nikki: Way back in the pilot, she had a really funny one liner about basically how that man that comes up at the very end of the season I'm forgetting his name now, but like the kind of douchey guy, how she's making this waterfall in his bathroom and now he wants a bidet.

Nikki: I don't even know what a bidet is.

Salina: You mean in the slumber party?

Nikki: Was it a slumber party episode?

Salina: I mean, the first time I saw a bidet I thought it was a drinking fountain for toddlers.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Is that what you're talking about?

Nikki: I'm remembering that.

Nikki: I think I looked it up.

Nikki: I thought there was another reference.

Nikki: It doesn't really matter except to say when you get into the nitty gritty of consistency, how could she have not known what a bidet was in her late 20s, early 30s, but known in high school?

Nikki: What?

Nikki: It was enough to know that what was happening at this country club was weird.

Salina: Oh, yeah.

Salina: I definitely see what you're saying.

Nikki: Also, do you think and this may be something you want to talk about in more depth, do you think Suzanne's trying to stretch that 39,000 from Atlantic City a little bit in covering country club dues and her house?

Nikki: I think we might have mentioned this in the last episode.

Salina: Yeah, I think that that's a fair.

Nikki: I think it's going to become more relevant in Extra Sugar, where we're going to talk about country clubs.

Nikki: But I think even in 1980 $8, that was expensive.

Nikki: The Dues last episode or two episodes ago, I mentioned that the subtitle website sometimes gets the words wrong because their Southern accents are so strong.

Nikki: This time it was NA Julia to naturally is what they wrote.

Nikki: It in the subtitle.

Salina: It kind of works, though.

Nikki: And at the very end of the episode when Julia says, like, sugar bakers is not so fancy that you can't bring your pig, the subtitle website caught it as Date.

Salina: I saw that one.

Salina: I did see that one.

Salina: And I didn't even think about that being from the accents.

Salina: I just thought maybe they caught that one wrong.

Salina: But I definitely remember being like, what?

Nikki: Najulia naturally?

Nikki: I don't know.

Nikki: I just imagine it's related to the accents.

Salina: That makes sense.

Salina: I'm with it.

Nikki: I'm sorry.

Nikki: I was way down in the weeds on Strays.

Nikki: Do we want to back up and talk general reactions to the episode now?

Salina: Now that you've taken me down this path?

Salina: You know, I'm flexible, so it's fine.

Nikki: Her eyes twitching.

Salina: Do you want to kick us off?

Nikki: My general reaction is just that I really love episodes when we get the fuzzy feeling between Julia and Suzanne.

Nikki: I love when they're like in episode 16 where Suzanne's irritating Julia and Julia is, like, really mean to Suzanne.

Nikki: That also is very funny.

Nikki: But I love when the sister love comes out.

Salina: Yeah, that's in my likes.

Salina: I like it.

Salina: And I think it's because we get to see that real life relationship shine through.

Salina: They were close in real life for many years and it's a genuine affection that they can see between them.

Salina: It's like if you and I become actors, we would have like a natural chemistry with one another.

Nikki: Maybe I'd be the star.

Nikki: I'd step on you with my heels.

Salina: Totally be the star.

Salina: It'll be fine.

Salina: The camera loves me and especially what I do in front of it.

Nikki: I sweat a lot.

Nikki: So we're an excellent duo.

Salina: It'll be great.

Salina: I'll be crying, you'll be sweating.

Salina: The important thing is that there's water.

Salina: I had actually two general reactions that I wanted to share that are, like, maybe beyond the scope of even this episode.

Nikki: Oh, man.

Salina: I'm just really profoundly thinking about this.

Nikki: Lord.

Salina: So this tension between Delta Burke and LBT.

Salina: Harry Thomason, we've talked about it a little bit.

Nikki: Where is this going to be going?

Salina: But first with them and then later even the fuller cast and all of this, it's widely covered in the press.

Salina: We've talked about that.

Salina: Some some of that was due to Delta, reportedly.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Because we weren't there.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: There's obviously a bunch of I mean, when these kinds of gossipy things get picked up in the news, who knows what's what?

Salina: Why are we even at calling it news?

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: But anyways, reportedly she asserts at the time she was the real star of the show.

Salina: And I have to tell you, if she felt that way, if she did, we don't know she did.

Salina: I'm starting to see why.

Salina: So I went back and I counted the episodes.

Salina: Children over here?

Salina: No children.

Salina: Anyways, I was looking back to see how many episodes is she at least coming across as, like, a central figure?

Salina: She is driving the plot at some level.

Salina: And it was eight of 22 episodes more than the third just in this season.

Salina: And she's also been the central part of the last three episodes in a row that we've covered now.

Salina: I guess she's got an arc right now, but I don't think we've seen any other character get a three episode arc.

Salina: So maybe we have.

Salina: Tell us if we're wrong.

Salina: We love that.

Nikki: I'm trying to remember we've had continuing storylines.

Nikki: Julia and Reese, Mary Joe and JD.

Nikki: But also Mary Joe and Ted.

Salina: But it's always flip flop.

Salina: It's round.

Salina: Different episodes.

Nikki: That is totally right.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Charlene only got two episodes and she had maybe breast cancer.

Salina: You see what I'm saying?

Nikki: I see what you're saying.

Salina: And if you think about it being a third and we have four, maybe arguably five main characters at this point in the show and she's taking up a third of the action anyways, I was just saying, like, if she sees it as being that way, there's probably an argument to be made there for that.

Nikki: I also think she was wildly popular among the fans.

Nikki: She's your favorite.

Nikki: She's 100% my favorite and I would argue many others as well.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: My second really broad thing here is I'm not sure whether to phrase this as a question or just my assertion.

Salina: So Julia, is she a fantasy character?

Salina: I don't mean like a fantasy.

Salina: I mean, like with LBT.

Salina: It feels like she's doing a few primary things with her.

Salina: She's bringing her in occasionally to make sense of a situation.

Salina: Like chaos ensued and even in the episode there's some black people coming to dinner.

Salina: She helped Mary Joe understand where Matt was coming from on race relations.

Nikki: She's like she's very godmother.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: So she comes in in that kind of way.

Salina: Or she's dropped into situations where, like, you and I have had these conversations where two days later, we know just what to say to somebody in the grocery store who was rude.

Nikki: Exactly.

Salina: She knows, right, what to say in that very moment and when most of us wouldn't have anything to say at all.

Salina: And for example, I mean, like, pretty much every rant she's ever done, even if we didn't agree with every bit of it, it was all fine tuned.

Salina: And then I just started to think, I'm like, what if she's Tyler Jordan?

Salina: What if she's not even really there?

Salina: Do you know who Tyler Jordan?

Nikki: I have no idea who Tyler Jordan is.

Salina: Have you seen Fight Club?

Nikki: No.

Nikki: Are you about to spoil this movie for people like me who haven't seen it?

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: It came out in 1999.

Nikki: Spoiler alert.

Nikki: Go ahead.

Salina: Your spoiler alert is over with.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I will not tell.

Salina: I will not.

Salina: No, go ahead and tell.

Salina: Are you sure?

Nikki: I'm seriously giving a spoiler alert right now.

Nikki: Like, if this means a lot to.

Salina: You, you just haven't gotten to it.

Nikki: Honestly, I could be in the middle of a movie and want someone to spoil it for me because I do not like surprise.

Nikki: I've talked about that before.

Nikki: I like the predictable.

Nikki: I like to know what's coming.

Nikki: So I do not get bothered by spoiler alerts for the most part.

Nikki: So this is one I don't care about.

Nikki: But if you do care, tune back in.

Nikki: I don't know, a minute, a minute and a half.

Salina: It's me.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: I was going to say 30 minutes, but I didn't want to tease you.

Salina: Fast forward three times.

Salina: Okay, so I feel bad now.

Salina: In Fight Club, the character Brad Pitt plays does not exist.

Salina: Okay?

Nikki: So he's in the guy's mind.

Salina: He's in Edward Norton's mind.

Salina: He's basically like, I don't want to.

Nikki: See wrong with Edward Norton in real life.

Nikki: All the characters he plays, I'm like, nothing's wrong with.

Salina: Edward Norton would come on the show tendencies.

Salina: I think he probably just likes to play, like, really crazy, complex characters and he does a really good job doing it.

Salina: I don't know, maybe it's as far as a split personality, but basically every time he's like this shy guy who doesn't know what to say.

Salina: And then Brad Pitt's the guy who comes in and gives him the confidence to get the girl and beat the crap out of people.

Salina: All those things you need.

Salina: Tell his boss to go fly a kite.

Salina: All those things that people may want to do in their head but they don't do.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: And I'm just wondering, is it possible that Julia is Mary Joe's Tyler Durden?

Nikki: Oh, I thought you were suggesting maybe she was LBT's.

Nikki: Tyler Durden.

Nikki: Because I think you've mentioned a few times that maybe LBT.

Nikki: Uses Julia to channel what she wishes.

Salina: She could say, come back in every week.

Salina: I'm going to have a different prediction.

Nikki: So I don't think we're going to get to season five or whenever the main cast leaves and find out that Julia is not real.

Nikki: I don't think that's going to happen.

Salina: What if we find out she's Brad Pitt?

Salina: Blood twist?

Nikki: But I think you're onto something in terms of she gets to be almost like this archetype for people, like this person that you want to be.

Nikki: And I think we've talked about this before.

Nikki: It's all feeling so familiar, but you want to be poised.

Nikki: You want to be the person no one can argue with.

Nikki: You want to be aggressive, but also polite.

Nikki: And I think it makes sense that she is a character like that.

Nikki: And that's how you're reading it.

Salina: Yeah, because I think my dream will be to tell off a bunch of snobs and do it like, awesome.

Salina: But in reality, I'm probably going to walk away cuss under my breath, kick something, just go about my day.

Salina: I told you they were big.

Nikki: Those aren't big.

Salina: They're very big.

Salina: Do you want me to go again?

Salina: Do you want to go?

Nikki: I'm done.

Nikki: Oh, I'm done.

Nikki: I'll come back in an extra sugar.

Salina: Well, you had all the strays.

Nikki: Just kidding.

Salina: Whatever.

Salina: You had all the strays.

Nikki: I had so many strays.

Salina: This time I had all the OBS, the general OBS.

Salina: I think Charlene may have had the best point of the entire episode.

Nikki: Oh, I think I might have this in my likes.

Nikki: Go ahead.

Salina: Crap.

Salina: No.

Salina: All right.

Salina: It doesn't matter where you go.

Salina: You can always find somebody who's trying to snub somebody else.

Salina: I think making people feel small this is me talking, not Charlene.

Salina: Just in case.

Salina: I think making people feel small is a terribly good pastime to a lot of people.

Nikki: It's a lot of fun.

Salina: Every time I do it, I feel like I feel dandy.

Nikki: I feel 10,000ft tall.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: No, I agree.

Nikki: That was so this is where you say is Julia what did you call her?

Nikki: Not a shadow character.

Nikki: Whatever.

Nikki: I think of Charlene as, like, the wisdom.

Salina: Oh, a fantasy character.

Nikki: Fantasy.

Nikki: Thank you.

Salina: I'm sorry.

Salina: I'm like, what are you talking about?

Nikki: I like shadow better.

Nikki: Like, she's a fantasy character.

Nikki: I think Charlene is like the soothsayer, like, wrapped in a silly package.

Nikki: But when you get down to it, charlene always has these very wise worldly things because it sounds like she's observed people at all levels.

Nikki: So she worked in one episode.

Nikki: Recently, we learned she was in the attorney General's office in Little Rock, Arkansas, which I think she rubbed shoulders with a lot of very the FedEx guy.

Nikki: Big wigs.

Nikki: Big wigs.

Nikki: Thank you.

Nikki: But then now she's in Sugar bakers in Atlanta.

Nikki: So I think of her as an observer of people.

Nikki: She comes from a family of 1000 people, so I think she's seen people of all walks, and they're all the same.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: No matter if you're up here or down here, there is someone just like you in one of those circles.

Nikki: People are all the same.

Salina: Right.

Salina: Also, random aside, I drove by a FedEx truck over the weekend.

Salina: I went, Fred Smith.

Nikki: That's all.

Nikki: And the driver was like, what?

Nikki: I don't have any coffee.

Salina: I like, drove by like, Honk, honk.

Salina: I'm like, not really.

Salina: My shirt was on.

Salina: It wasn't that exciting of a trip.

Salina: Shirt was on.

Salina: So embarrassed of me.

Salina: Cry getting hot.

Nikki: All this talk of Fred Smith and FedEx trucks taking her shirt off really got me going.

Salina: Either.

Salina: It's menopause.

Salina: Whatever.

Salina: Also super hot.

Salina: Okay, this other thing, this is my last one, but there's a couple of steps in there.

Nikki: Perfect.

Salina: So we sort of, brick by brick, learn who they will not accept at this particular club.

Nikki: Right?

Salina: People who are Jewish, african American, typically widows.

Salina: Get out of here, widow.

Salina: It's so weird.

Salina: And then, I mean, the first two are awful, but this is like a tried and true story.

Salina: Unfortunately.

Salina: We're going to get into it.

Salina: I was going to say allegedly extra.

Nikki: She'll go, there's no proof for any of this yet.

Salina: Oh, my.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: And women who are divorced lose their memberships.

Salina: So we learn each one of those things.

Salina: First of all, OOH OOH on all of that.

Salina: OOH OOH.

Nikki: Poo poo judgy wudgie.

Salina: I mean, really, to let to not let people in the club, in the club.

Nikki: You can't let those widows in.

Nikki: God knows what they'll do.

Salina: Taking all the men.

Salina: Oh, my God.

Salina: Is that the concern?

Salina: Anyways, anyways, so that's terrible.

Salina: But also, that part connects to one of my general reactions, which is the committee's reasons for denying Suzanne specifically.

Salina: So they tell Julia, it's all those beauty titles, all those divorces.

Salina: She's a little too eager to be there.

Salina: She's just not Beaumont.

Salina: So a couple of thoughts on that.

Salina: Knowing that these morality rules were in place, and she acts like she's very up on the club and their rules and all of these things.

Salina: Why did she think she could get it in the first place?

Salina: She has multiple divorces, right?

Salina: So that's thing one, I mean, I'm just curious.

Salina: It doesn't matter.

Salina: It's a show.

Nikki: Again, I think we will get like you said, it's a show.

Nikki: And I don't want to speculate too much.

Nikki: I think we'll get into this.

Salina: I don't want to speculate.

Salina: Here's some speculation.

Nikki: There are written rules and there are unwritten rules.

Nikki: That's not speculation.

Nikki: That is fact based.

Nikki: There are rules that are written out and spelled out.

Nikki: And then there's the interpretation between the lines.

Nikki: Suzanne is not always quick on the draw, and I.

Nikki: Don't know that Suzanne or the rules.

Salina: Don'T apply to her.

Nikki: That was the absolute words were just going through my mouth.

Nikki: I don't know that she thinks the rules apply to her.

Salina: Okay, so the second thing that I thought was strange on that and then I'm going to shut up.

Salina: Were you surprised that the beauty titles were points against her?

Nikki: Absolutely.

Nikki: Okay, I was.

Salina: Because it's not like she was Miss Flea Market or Miss Wiggly.

Salina: Now let me back up, please.

Salina: If you clarify or Miss Flea Market or Miss Piggly Wiggly, I celebrate you so long as they were treating you with respect that you deserve and you enjoy that experience.

Salina: But I'm thinking for a hoity toity club, I can see how they might have feelings about who your beauty title is from.

Salina: Because appearance to them is everything at all measures, at all levels.

Salina: That's what I meant by using those two examples, I would make the argument that they might not find that dignified.

Salina: Like, just in general.

Salina: I'm not talking about those two specific places.

Salina: Like, it's too regular, too common or something.

Salina: But it also seems like they would think of her as a feather in their cap.

Salina: We have a Miss Georgia world here among us.

Nikki: I think, without spoiling anything, I am not a member of high society, but I do think that getting into the concept of elitism competing openly in a beauty contest, I think is something I was surprised when it was brought up.

Nikki: And then the more I reflected on it, the more I realized, yes, it could seem eager.

Nikki: There's the whole thing associated with status, climbing and looking for your next husband.

Nikki: So I think all of these things together.

Nikki: I think if she were Miss Georgia World and married to a senator long time, that's very different than if she's Missed Georgia World, has been married five times to very prominent people in Atlanta, can't seem to make it work, is begging to get into this club.

Nikki: Like, I just think they all stack up against each other.

Nikki: But I think if she were Miss Georgia World, I don't know.

Nikki: I imagine some clubs wouldn't see that as the best resume addition, but then other clubs might appreciate it.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: Some things to ponder on.

Nikki: We have things to think about.

Salina: Well, we've talked about some things that we liked because I think it just kind of comes up organically.

Salina: But what's on your list that we haven't covered?

Nikki: Well, we sort of covered it, but the snappy writing, I feel like is back in this episode.

Nikki: We've seen it a lot in the last couple of episodes.

Nikki: Anthony had a one liner where where I grew up, any girl not on Penicillin was a debutante.

Nikki: Oh, my gosh.

Nikki: I thought that was hilarious.

Nikki: And then Charlene's thing about people who want to snub other people.

Nikki: So I just think the snappy writing julia's, takedown was, like, so perfect.

Nikki: It's just so perfect.

Nikki: That's the only way I can say it, because it was really well done.

Nikki: So that's my biggest thing I liked in this episode was the writing.

Salina: So there was a specific it was Anthony in general, I think, for me.

Salina: Okay, so I have here that he was killing it in this episode.

Salina: So his snark was just a plus plus from his comments to Suzanne, who, as you said earlier, is like, running him all over the place.

Salina: Again, I wish he would just say no, but as he's doing it, he lays a snarky comment, and I enjoy it.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: But actually, my favorite thing was when some of the club members come to Sugar Bakers.

Salina: And I think one of the people Billy snottily asks him, once he realizes his name is Anthony Bouvier, whether or not he's related to Jackie.

Salina: And Anthony's retort is, like, nothing short of delicious.

Salina: It's so good.

Salina: This one I wrote down.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: And so I thought I would share.

Nikki: That perfect.

Salina: My Anthony is so good.

Nikki: Exercise your instrument.

Salina: Why, yes, as a matter of fact, I am.

Salina: She's my sister, but we had this huge fallen out over some land that dad left us.

Salina: Now, that was not long after Jack got into the White House and I was still in grade school.

Salina: But then after she married Onassis, he and I became very close.

Salina: Ari, he's such a great guy.

Salina: We played a lot of golf together on Scorpios since he died.

Salina: I haven't seen much of her, though, except for those OD social occasions like Carolyn and Edwin Schloshberg's wedding.

Salina: Oh, he's a wonderful fella.

Salina: Very high intensity.

Salina: And he has this fabulous barn in the Berkshires.

Salina: Well, I'll tell Jackie that you asked about her.

Salina: She'll be so pleased to know that common people still care.

Salina: And I just love that because some of that, I think, was cut out of the actual episode because we get the cut lines, too.

Salina: But just fantastic.

Nikki: That was really super.

Nikki: It was super well written.

Nikki: And then just again, we've talked before his delivery is just amazing.

Salina: Yeah, because it was like, the opposite of what I just did.

Salina: So just, like, imagine I thought that was good, those good words.

Salina: But, like, coming from Anthony, it's just so dry.

Salina: And I love sarcasm.

Salina: I know.

Salina: Some people are isn't it?

Salina: Sarcasm, they say, is like, a less sophisticated type of wit.

Salina: Oh, I disagree.

Nikki: Oh, I've never heard that.

Salina: I'm pretty sure I've heard that somewhere.

Salina: And so for me, I'm like, not if you put it on.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: I'm pretty sure I've heard that somewhere.

Nikki: That was your mom saying that to you as a teenager, asking you to stop being so sarcastic.

Salina: She'd have to stop first.

Salina: So the only other thing that I had is in real life, I don't really buy into this whole private club thing.

Salina: It does nothing for me.

Salina: I mean, if that's your thing, go for it.

Salina: Go do it.

Salina: Maybe I'm wrong based on something you said, but I had a feeling knowing what you were going into with extra sugar, it might put me more off than I already was.

Salina: But maybe I'll love them.

Salina: Who knows?

Salina: The thing is, I'm still curious about it because, like anything that's private, it piques your interest.

Salina: So I like to get these opportunities, like this episode where we get these glimpses even when I know we're, like.

Nikki: Teetering on the satirical.

Nikki: Yes.

Nikki: And I think there is definitely more than a kernel of truth to some of the country club allegations.

Nikki: I will say that one of the takeaways from extra sugar, the too long didn't read version is there are lots of country clubs.

Nikki: There are a handful that are like what's described in this episode.

Nikki: So I don't think that you can paint with a broad brush.

Nikki: But I think the point they were making in this episode is that these very exclusive places where our leaders, where our big business people are big, the people who influence our lives in massive ways, are making deals on golf courses, are having drinks in bars, are having dinner together, places you cannot get into.

Nikki: Yeah, that happens.

Nikki: There are several country clubs in the US.

Nikki: Where that happens.

Nikki: And I think that knowing that it's happening in those places is important, even if the bigger picture is, most country clubs are probably pretty harmless.

Salina: I'm going to leave names out of this.

Salina: I know a lot of times I want to give a shout out to friends.

Salina: In this case, I won't.

Salina: But just to tell you how sometimes that sexism still runs deep.

Salina: So I have a friend, she and the father of her children are no longer together, but she has a son and a daughter and he wanted to take the son, but not the daughter because he wanted to take the son to go play golf so he would know how to interact with businessmen in the future, but not the daughter.

Salina: This was last year, so 2021.

Salina: And I'm like, are you kidding me?

Salina: Meanwhile, I have another friend and she's in marketing and she literally went and took golf lessons so that she could make sure she was inserting herself in those conversations.

Salina: And so they're definitely still playing out in real life and in some surprising ways, I think.

Nikki: So.

Salina: Solved.

Salina: It.

Nikki: Interesting things we didn't like.

Nikki: Spoiler alert, I have nothing on my list.

Salina: Oh, there you go.

Salina: I only have one thing.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: And it's pretty NIT picky, but I feel like I need to share this because it is southern related.

Salina: Julia's description of what the club used to be.

Salina: She talks about Suzanne being probably the only young person in Atlanta who truly does fit in here, at least to what you all started out to be.

Salina: You see, she still believes in the old south romance and pride and tradition.

Salina: I struggle with that.

Salina: Not because I don't think that's real for a lot of people.

Salina: It's a lovely sentiment, absolutely lovely.

Salina: And I do understand what she's trying to say.

Salina: And I also understand that many people mean that with nothing but goodness in their heart.

Salina: However, I feel like those descriptions are tainted for me because too frequently they're used as an excuse to exclude people, especially the tradition part, as a way to masquerade people doing questionable things.

Salina: Like, this is my heritage, is my tradition.

Salina: And so in addition to the many isms these things masquerade as I just also have no floss for that in group, out group thing.

Salina: And that's all circling around this, too.

Salina: That's the only thing I didn't like.

Salina: It doesn't really have anything to do with the episode, just that sentiment.

Nikki: I'm having a lot of complex thoughts.

Nikki: The one I will say is I think that this episode I'll give you five later.

Nikki: I know I am hoping that this episode is sort of like almost like a coming to Jesus moment for Suzanne where she finally gets a viewpoint into or an insight into this thing that she's wanted for so long.

Nikki: And I wonder how many people I'm just not a status I'm not a status climber.

Nikki: The high society does not appeal to me at all.

Nikki: I love reading about it.

Nikki: I especially love some of the drama that goes with it because that can be a very messy bunch.

Nikki: They hide it very well and then sometimes not so well.

Nikki: So I love the drama of it, but it doesn't appeal to me.

Nikki: But someone like Suzanne, I think she really does think that higher is better and that somehow those people are better than other people, only to find out they don't think she's as good as they are.

Nikki: And I think that's a real I hope it's a real turning point for her and changes sort of what she's after and what appeals to her.

Nikki: And I think that whole line, that whole exchange maybe existed to sort of make that point, I don't know.

Salina: Okay, well, that's a good assessment of that as well.

Nikki: That was a very heavy thought you just dumped on me.

Salina: Sorry, that's my job.

Nikki: I sat with that quote, actually, at least what you started out to be.

Nikki: I sat with that for a long time and wasn't sure what to make of it.

Nikki: So you did a better job articulating it than I did.

Salina: Well, I don't know about all that, but I'm glad that you think that I didn't screw it up.

Salina: And I take that as my highest honor.

Salina: On that note, would you like to rate this sucker?

Nikki: Let's do it.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: What you got?

Nikki: Nasty newlyweds.

Salina: Nasty newlyweds?

Salina: Well, how many of them?

Nikki: I'm giving it four out of five.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: It's weird because I had no dislikes, but this one didn't feel like a five episode to me.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: I'm sort of revisiting that in my head, but I'm going with it.

Nikki: I thought this felt like a learning without knowing your learning episode.

Nikki: We've talked about that a couple of times.

Nikki: How some of the episodes do that, I don't know.

Nikki: I felt like I learned some things.

Salina: I felt like I like it wasn't just the research.

Nikki: Well, you know what?

Nikki: As I was coming out of my mouth, I was like, I've been working on this extra sugar for a really long time and I'm actually really excited about it.

Nikki: But no, I think even on my first watch, I was sort of like, so four out of five.

Salina: Okay, I gave it four and a half out of five.

Salina: muffies, tuffies and bitties, which I think is what Julia is like off the cuff, saying what their names are.

Salina: Maybe at one point I just liked it a lot.

Salina: I think this is the strongest episode I've seen in a tear.

Salina: Now, I thought the plotline was very much in the wheelhouse of this show.

Salina: It was interesting.

Salina: I thought the pacing was really good, and I just like the overall dynamics.

Salina: It was a real winner.

Salina: All right, well, I'm dying to get to this extra sugar, so let's get down through these flipping references.

Nikki: Okay, I'm going to disappoint you because I think I missed a bunch of stuff, so I'm going straight down to references I had to look up.

Nikki: So if you've got stuff in those first four categories, three categories, take it away.

Salina: All right, well, I thought I would have one that was 80s references to look up.

Salina: This is my only combo.

Salina: Old movie stars doing commercials for bladder control in the 80s.

Salina: As mentioned, I couldn't find anyone.

Salina: So if you guys know and you remember who this star is I'm very interested to see and I just couldn't find it.

Nikki: I think in my head I updated that to now times, or at least like when I used to watch cable TV times.

Nikki: There are a lot of old movie stars that do denture commercial, like the denture glue commercials or Activia.

Nikki: Activia is the other one that comes to mind.

Nikki: So, yeah, they do a lot of those product promotions.

Salina: I feel like most of a lot of big stars will do stuff overseas that we won't see.

Salina: I remember the first time I saw George now, George Clooney's Nespresso stuff did come this way to the US.

Salina: But at first it was like, only in Europe.

Salina: And the first time I ever saw it in like, a movie theater or something, I was like George Cludy's in a commercial.

Nikki: I don't think I've seen any of these.

Salina: Oh, really?

Nikki: Yeah, I don't look him up.

Salina: He plays like a knight.

Nikki: Right on top of that.

Salina: Smart a**.

Salina: Anyway, you've already mentioned one of my 80s things, which was Garfield.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Actually started as a comic strip in the 70s.

Salina: You're welcome, everybody.

Salina: I know you are dying to know.

Salina: But also, the cartoon debuted in 88, ran through 94.

Salina: So that 80s feeling my 80s feeling was right anyways.

Salina: All right.

Salina: Nancy Reagan is referenced by Julia when commenting on how ridiculous the club's prices were.

Salina: Southern things.

Salina: This whole idea of a private Southern country club situation that's represented by Beaumont and then my other Southern thing we already talked about, but this idea of the Old South and romance and pride and tradition and then I'm into references.

Salina: Now what you got?

Nikki: The Newlywed Game and the idea that they tell sick things about each other.

Nikki: So for folks who aren't familiar, the Newlywed Game debuted on ABC on July 11, 1966.

Nikki: It was scheduled at 02:00 P.m..

Nikki: It was the last us.

Nikki: Commercial network series to premiere in black and white, although it converted to color shortly thereafter.

Nikki: It's been on the air forever.

Nikki: But in the show, they would separate the spouses and then ask them questions about one another, bringing them back for, like, sometimes really, really funny reveals.

Nikki: And I was mostly curious, like I mentioned, about the sick things part.

Nikki: So Charlene says, like, they talk about the partner snoring or something and how gross it is.

Salina: I changed it to, like, farting in your sleep.

Nikki: Oh, there you go.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: So it actually sounds like some divorces have occurred as a result of the show.

Nikki: I found a 2014 article where the former wife said that she was preparing for some of the questions on the show.

Nikki: So they give you the questions?

Nikki: No, her partner gave her some questions that have come up on the show before, and he wanted her to prepare for them so that they didn't look stupid going on a game show.

Nikki: She was preparing for questions around kids, and it made her realize she didn't want to have kids with that guy.

Nikki: It wasn't that she didn't want kids, she didn't want them with that guy.

Nikki: So she ended up divorcing him.

Nikki: I don't know.

Salina: Do you have other references?

Nikki: I do.

Nikki: Sorry.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Happy?

Nikki: I thought you had more thoughts than that.

Nikki: They talk about blue blood, which is something that is a term that comes up a lot and context clues told me and hopefully would tell other people that it has something to do with being elite, something to do with being hoitie toity.

Nikki: It actually refers to being a noble or a member of a socially prominent family.

Nikki: So I found a random website that said blue blood is a literal translation of the Spanish Sangra Azul.

Nikki: It was the designation attributed to some of the oldest and proudest families of Castile who claimed never to have intermarried with Moors, Jews, or any other races.

Nikki: The expression probably originated in the blueness of the veins of people of fair complexion as compared with those of dark skin.

Salina: Oh, what a beautiful sentiment.

Salina: That's really all right, well, that's two happy ones in a row.

Nikki: Keep going.

Nikki: My last one's about a candy almond roca came up at the end.

Nikki: I had no idea what that was, but it is, according to Wikipedia, a brand of chocolate covered almond butter crunch, hard toffee with a coating of ground almonds.

Nikki: It's similar to chocolate covered English toffee.

Nikki: If you have any of that downstairs, Salina, I will take it because I'm very hungry.

Salina: Well, since it was also on my things to look up new, although when I saw the box, I was like, that kind of looks familiar.

Salina: Roca is the Spanish word for rock and that's exactly what came to mind when I read that description.

Salina: I was like, that all sounds like it does sound delicious, but also like.

Nikki: It might break my teeth out.

Nikki: Yeah, that was the last one I had.

Salina: Okay, so National Social Register.

Salina: I mean, you can put again, it's like that context clue thing, but it is a semiannual publication in the US that indexes the members of American high society.

Salina: I think it's still published.

Salina: It wasn't.

Salina: Wikipedia was only so helpful helpful anyways.

Salina: But it was most recently acquired by Christopher Wolf in 2014 and before him it was like Forbes that was in charge of it.

Nikki: That is such a weird concept to me, putting your name on a list of like well, I'm saying this is.

Salina: This stuff, like this stuff with the blue blood.

Salina: My blood's never mingled with or like these.

Salina: Like, oh, my name's on a list.

Salina: Bite me.

Salina: Anyway, speaking of biting me, I'd like to bite this, which is A and w.

Salina: So I couldn't help myself just in case.

Salina: People in this, there's not a ton of them in the south, but they are in the south now.

Salina: But it's a chain of fast food restaurants distinguished by its burgers, draught root beer and root beer floats.

Salina: Nikki, are you a root beer gal?

Nikki: I hate root beer.

Salina: What about a root beer float?

Nikki: I hate root beer, so I'm not.

Salina: A big root beer person, which is why I was going to ask.

Nikki: I have to clarify, I'm not not a big root beer person.

Nikki: I hate root beer.

Nikki: Once upon a time, I think my stepdad made some.

Nikki: Like, you know how you can make we've talked about sun tea before.

Nikki: You can also make homemade root beer.

Nikki: And I think it scarred me for life.

Nikki: My stepdad still to this day loves A and W root beer and he has it at his house pretty frequently and shares the love with my son, which makes me ever so happy I can't even look at it.

Salina: There's something about that chemical reaction.

Salina: I don't like it by itself.

Salina: And I do think some root beers are better than others.

Salina: I don't want it to be when it's too they have just like that.

Salina: Too many roots, not enough beer, I guess.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: Anyways or like a Sasparilla, I think is better because it's like smoother.

Salina: But when the ice cream hits the root beer, it does a chemical reaction I really love.

Salina: I have one more thing to say about A and W.

Salina: I told you I'm hungry.

Salina: It was, like, first founded in California in 1919.

Salina: I can't imagine a world where California today founds a fast food chain restaurant with burgers, draft root beer and root beer floats.

Salina: Doesn't that sound like the antithesis of California now?

Nikki: Didn't McDonald's start in California, too?

Salina: I think so.

Nikki: An inn out burger.

Salina: It's a different time.

Nikki: Those were heady times.

Nikki: Yeah, the early 19 hundreds.

Salina: Lots of things happen.

Salina: I just wanted to mention the Kennedy references.

Salina: I think we all know who JFK is.

Nikki: I sure hope so.

Salina: But in case people don't know who Aristotle Onassis is, ori as Anthony calls him, he's a wealthy shipping magnet who married Jackie, like, maybe five years after JFK's death.

Salina: And at that time, he was one of the richest people in the world.

Salina: I had to look up Scorpios.

Salina: I didn't know what that was.

Nikki: Do you know what scorpio?

Nikki: Greek island.

Salina: It's a private island off of Greece.

Salina: It does sound Greek.

Salina: That he owned was sold to a Russian oligarch in 2013, and as of 2024, it belongs to me.

Nikki: Spoiler alert, big announcement.

Salina: It'll be a luxury resort and you can go there if you so choose.

Salina: I mean, maybe, like, choose and are also wealthy.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Speaking of exclusivity, I'm imagining it's not an easy place to get into.

Salina: I also had to look up Caroline and Edwin Schlossberg.

Salina: I feel like I should have put together that was Caroline Kennedy, but, oh, Edwin really threw me off.

Salina: But they got married in 1986.

Salina: That barn in the Berkshires thing was so specific.

Salina: I was like, what's happening to this barn?

Salina: And basically, Edwin lived in a really small town in the Berkshires and they got a whole lot of attention when those two got married.

Salina: And it wasn't that long before this episode, so I could see that turning in the wheels of LBT's mind.

Salina: And now yours, definitely.

Salina: So this is actually from a cut line, but Suzanne mentions that pigs don't live that long.

Salina: I looked it up.

Salina: It's about 15 to 20 years.

Salina: I needed to know.

Nikki: They live as long as a dog.

Salina: Then, honestly, it's not that long.

Salina: But also, it's not like I expected it to be almost really short.

Nikki: Yeah, because they're not, like, tortoises.

Nikki: Like, I don't imagine I'm looking at a 50 year old pig.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: That's weird.

Nikki: I'm glad you looked it up, Salina.

Salina: So glad lawn jockeys also get mentioned.

Salina: This is the second mention of lawn jockeys over the course of this show.

Nikki: That's actually why I didn't go into it, because I thought we had discussed it before.

Salina: I think I knocked it off the list because it was in a list of, like, 80 references.

Salina: And I looked across and I think that day I was like, is she going to cut me?

Salina: So lawn jockeys.

Salina: These are a small statue of a man in jockey clothes intended to be placed, like, in front yards as hitching posts.

Salina: These words don't even mean anything to me.

Salina: I'm like, oh, the old hitching post.

Salina: What is that for?

Salina: Buggies.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: It's where you tie your horse up.

Salina: Anyway.

Salina: So it's similar to those footmen bearing lanterns near entrances and gnomes and gardens.

Salina: This is a holdover from the days of slavery and Jim Crow.

Salina: And it's an artifact of racial prejudice alongside similar to what we were talking about before, like, with the Mammy character in maybe a couple of episodes ago.

Salina: So I'm going to link to an article, but there's a couple of less substantiated stories claiming the roots of this statue, and some actually are kind of positive, which I'd never heard anything positive about it.

Salina: And so if you find that intriguing, you can look into it for yourself.

Salina: And then very last one.

Salina: Silver dollar.

Salina: Mary Jove she's talking about her piggy bank and something about how she's finding less silver dollars than ever before.

Salina: Like, I realized I'm like, I don't even know if I've ever seen a silver dollar before.

Salina: What?

Nikki: Really?

Salina: Maybe when I was like, little.

Nikki: Oh, I think I have one at home.

Nikki: You'll have to bring it.

Salina: I'm like, how did you not know to bring it?

Salina: Show.

Salina: I would love it.

Salina: No wonder she hadn't seen it.

Salina: It went out of circulation in 1935.

Salina: But this is a real important thing for everybody to know.

Salina: Your PSA, be on the lookout for them.

Salina: Check the date on that one.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: One of the first ones ever that ever struck the mint or whatever that terminology is, sold for over $800,000 last year.

Nikki: My grandfather is a very dedicated coin collector.

Nikki: I am sure he has some silver dollars.

Salina: You better tell us.

Nikki: Talk to my stepdad.

Nikki: See if I can find us a silver dollar.

Salina: You feel like I have one to do that?

Salina: It's very important.

Nikki: But if I have a silver dollar, as you're telling me that I'm like, if I have one, I'm not taking good care of it.

Nikki: I'm not giving it the do it deserves.

Nikki: I think it's in one of my coin jars.

Salina: You'll have to ask him for some tips of how to take care of it.

Nikki: Didn't have to use that word.

Salina: Some guidance.

Salina: Did you have any cut lines that stuck out for you?

Nikki: I had two.

Nikki: The first one you just mentioned where they cut that.

Nikki: Suzanne says pigs don't live really long, and that's why she likes to give her all the material pleasures you can as she can.

Nikki: Charlene followed up with, you really relate to her, don't you?

Nikki: And Suzanne's like, what are you talking about?

Nikki: She says you're sort of like that.

Nikki: You know how you want everything right now?

Nikki: I bet you think of yourself as a big pig here on Earth.

Nikki: Only for a short time, don't you?

Nikki: No, I don't.

Nikki: I'm sorry.

Nikki: It was just a thought.

Nikki: I liked that line because I liked the interaction between them.

Nikki: They keep cutting all the descriptions of Noel, like all the stuff about Noel, and I do think she's almost an emotional support pig at this point, and I don't think we have enough of that evidence.

Salina: Do you think that was a weight.

Nikki: Thing, though, that they decided to cut?

Nikki: I didn't read it that way.

Salina: I don't read it that way from Charlene because I don't think Charlene is like that.

Nikki: Are you calling pigs fat?

Salina: Absolutely not.

Nikki: Is that what you're saying here?

Salina: I never would do that.

Nikki: And then the next cut line was when Charlene says, the club sounds nice.

Nikki: And Suzanne says, you got to be kidding.

Nikki: It's more than nice.

Nikki: And she says, you know what it is?

Nikki: Yes, Suzanne, we know it's the oldest, most exclusive club in Atlanta.

Nikki: We might not get out much, but we do have a guide to the city.

Nikki: How exclusive can a driving club be?

Nikki: Everybody drives.

Nikki: The reason I think I held onto this was because she says, then it's a holdover from the old horse and buggy days.

Nikki: And I think I might have mentioned this in a recent extra sugar to probably just call out to myself.

Nikki: I wanted to remind everybody that my research told me the same thing Suzanne just did.

Salina: It was in your Buckhead one.

Nikki: Yes, that's right.

Salina: Morningside Buckhead.

Salina: What was the name?

Salina: It's that real specific road.

Nikki: I know.

Nikki: Yeah, we all tuxedo road.

Nikki: I can't do it on the spot.

Nikki: When you're glaring into my soul, my brain hurts.

Nikki: I think that's it.

Nikki: I had one more cut line and as I'm reading it, I'm like, I'm not sure why I have that.

Nikki: So I'm going to just let it go.

Nikki: I'm going to let it go.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: The only other one that I really liked was from Anthony, and I just put that cut line on in that.

Nikki: Full thing I read you.

Salina: And then there was like some not important ones, so I'm done.

Nikki: So next Episode episode 20 how Great Thou Art So everybody can follow along with us and engage.

Nikki: We're on Instagram and Facebook at Sweet tea and TV.

Nikki: You can also easily access all of our episodes and our exhaustive list of references.

Nikki: Because as exhaustive as we are on air, we are far more exhaustive in person.

Salina: The most exhausting.

Nikki: I said exhaustive, not exhausting.

Salina: Oh, excuse me.

Salina: I'm sorry.

Nikki: So you can visit our website,, and you can email us at

Nikki: Don't forget to leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts and hang tight for extra sugar.

Nikki: I don't know why I'm so excited about that.

Salina: I'm super excited.

Nikki: It's a segment I am calling the Incredibly Elite Bona Fide Country Club.

Nikki: Fact or fiction?

Salina: It's going to be.

Salina: Good.

Salina: That sounds lovely.

Salina: Also, good job on the plugs, because maybe someone texted me this week that I'm close with and said you guys need reviews.

Salina: I heard Nikki say it.

Nikki: Oh, my goodness.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Well, hello, person who's close to Salina.

Nikki: Thanks for listening.

Nikki: Thanks for taking my direction, most importantly.

Salina: So good job.

Salina: Yay.

Salina: And on that note, we'll see you around the bend.

Salina: By.

Nikki: Welcome to this week's edition of extra sugar.

Nikki: Like I just mentioned, I'm calling today's segment the incredibly elite bona fide country club fact or fiction?

Nikki: In this segment, we're going to talk a little bit about the history of the country club.

Nikki: And then more specifically, I wanted to dig into some of Julia's criticisms of the country club's proclivity toward the isms.

Nikki: So I'm specifically focusing on elitism sexism and racism.

Nikki: I want to preface all of this with saying there were about a million directions I felt myself being pulled in on this particular extra sugar.

Nikki: There's just so many ways to take this.

Nikki: But I thought maybe focusing in on her allegations against the country club and trying to give some proof or disprove to those, maybe that feels more close to the meat of the episode.

Nikki: So that's the direction we're going.

Salina: Love it.

Nikki: First up, an important caveat.

Nikki: Salina, are you now or have you ever been a member of a country club?

Nikki: No, I've been in a country club oh, my.

Nikki: As a guest?

Salina: As a widow a few times as a guest.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: I didn't go to this prom, but our school had one.

Salina: There was a country club that was right next to our school.

Salina: I was living somewhere else.

Salina: I didn't live in that neighborhood, but my best friend Taylor did.

Salina: And we spent a lot of time over there and we spent a lot of time I used to like to go roll down the hills of the golf course.

Nikki: Oh, my.

Salina: Girl, you know, I'm classy.

Nikki: So that went about the direction I thought it was going to go.

Nikki: I was 15.

Salina: Go on.

Nikki: Incidentally, I'm sure it'll shock people to hear this.

Nikki: I also have never been a member of a country club, and I am not currently.

Nikki: So I know not of what I speak.

Nikki: I only know what I was able to glean from Wikipedia and news media.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: But I've tried to be really conscientious about the specific examples I've pulled out and sourcing my references because I do not want to accuse someone of something they didn't do.

Nikki: So I have references for all these things.

Nikki: So with that in mind, how about we start with a history lesson?

Salina: Love history.

Nikki: Which I think is more interesting than it sounds like it will be.

Nikki: So according to Wikipedia, a country club is a privately owned club, often with a membership quota and admittance by invitation or sponsorship that generally offers both a variety of recreational sports and facilities for dining and entertaining.

Nikki: Typical athletic offerings are golf, tennis and swimming, where golf is the principal or sole sporting activity.

Nikki: And especially outside the United States, it's common for a country club to be referred to simply as a golf club.

Nikki: So throughout this segment, I'm going to kind of use those terms interchangeably.

Nikki: And that's why country clubs are most commonly located in city outskirts or suburbs, mostly because you need a lot of land to do the things they're doing, and that also distinguishes them from urban athletic clubs.

Nikki: So Wikipedia says the first country clubs first appeared in Scotland, and an American Heritage article I found said that country clubs then came about in the US because most rich in America in the post Civil War era were British descended and they wanted to mirror British aristocracy in the US.

Nikki: But they lacked the country house.

Nikki: The idea of British upper class spending the summer season on their vast family estates.

Nikki: Because we didn't have an aristocracy in the US, they didn't have vast family.

Salina: Estates, except for the billmore.

Nikki: There you go.

Nikki: But like generations of estates.

Nikki: So they needed a place to unwind and also to show people how rich they were.

Nikki: So they soon found a way to do both.

Nikki: We call it the Country Club.

Nikki: The Country Club of Brookline outside Boston, Massachusetts.

Nikki: A lot of country clubs claim to be the first Brookline I saw in a few places was given that honor by a few different people.

Nikki: So I'm going with that one.

Nikki: And they themselves claim to be the first US based country club established in January 1882.

Nikki: An article I found said the club was founded by a group of socially elite men in Boston, 4 miles from Boston's Center.

Nikki: So once upon a time, 4 miles was considered the burbs.

Salina: Oh, well, when you're traveling by horse, I guess that makes sense.

Salina: And buggy.

Nikki: That's correct.

Salina: I have to get just to comment, that is later than I would have anticipated.

Salina: Oh, really?

Salina: No reason.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: I thought they had been around longer than that.

Nikki: Interesting.

Nikki: So Brookline was originally a summer attraction for those from the city, but it officially became suburban residences for many.

Nikki: Later, Brookline offered shooting, horseback riding, and even later, golf, which was experiencing a bit of a renaissance in the US at the time, having disappeared in the early colonial days.

Nikki: So one fun fact I'm going to drop in here is that in Brookline's early days, golf was prohibited by law on Sundays.

Nikki: One Sunday, more than 30 members were arrested for playing on a Sunday.

Nikki: So the club's influential members came together and persuaded the legislature to lift the ban.

Nikki: So who says money can't buy you happiness?

Salina: Oh, well, not me.

Nikki: So, unlike downtown city clubs, brookline and other country clubs also allowed women and children to participate.

Nikki: But membership was limited to men and by invitation only.

Nikki: In the early days at Brookline, dues were about $1,000 a year.

Nikki: The article I read about brookline said, by the turn of the century, so that would have been by the early 19 hundreds.

Nikki: There were over a thousand country clubs in the US.

Nikki: With at least one in every state and territory.

Nikki: So in those early days, the clubs were overwhelmingly derived of socially elite from major cities.

Nikki: And there was maybe unsurprisingly, a lack of diversity.

Nikki: Most members were white Anglo Saxon Protestants and that wasn't really an accident.

Nikki: And that's sort of where you get into some of Julia's claims about membership.

Nikki: Most of what I read said money can't necessarily buy you membership into any country club.

Nikki: The American Heritage article talked pretty in depth about antisemitism in country clubs.

Nikki: According to the article, a prestigious country club in New York, the Union League Club had several Jewish founding members.

Nikki: But after the Civil War, antisemitism rose as Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe rose.

Nikki: And that's when there became a divide between Jews and gentiles.

Nikki: They gave the example of a wealthy banker and member of the Union League Club who put his son up for membership, but the club didn't accept it.

Nikki: They said they didn't want any more Jewish members.

Nikki: So of course, that guy they said they didn't want any more Jewish members, but they were happy to keep the ones they had.

Nikki: That's wild, right kind.

Nikki: So that dude, of course, was like, that's messed up.

Nikki: I'm resigning.

Nikki: I'm not going to be part of this country club anymore.

Nikki: They kept him on their roles, though, for the rest of his life, even though he never went back.

Nikki: That's weird, right?

Salina: That's definitely weird.

Nikki: So as the WASPy country clubs were declining diverse membership, various groups started creating their own country clubs.

Nikki: The article said springfield, Massachusetts has four major country clubs.

Nikki: They said that the most prestigious, the Long Meadow Country Club, has a mostly Wasp membership.

Nikki: The Springfield country club is comprised largely of wealthy Irish catholic.

Nikki: The Crestview Country Club is exclusively Jewish, while the Ludlow Country Club serves the lower middle class.

Nikki: The first country clubs with black memberships were founded in the 1960s.

Nikki: The American Heritage article talked about how bad racial discrimination was in country clubs at the Chevy Chase Country Club in DC.

Nikki: Black foreign diplomat?

Nikki: That's correct.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: Chevy Chase is like a city around DC.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: Black foreign diplomats were allowed in, but black Americans were not.

Salina: Geez, this is like the one I did on World War II with the soldiers.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: As the century came to a close, membership at clubs became more diverse.

Nikki: Some by choice, some by force.

Nikki: American Heritage said in 1986, the Burning Tree Country Club in Bethesda, Maryland lost a 186,000 a year no development exemption because of discrimination against women.

Nikki: And it also made the point that by this time, the groups that led the fight for civil rights were joining country clubs, which led to change.

Nikki: So today it might be tempting to say that culture may be pushing country clubs into irrelevancy and in turn people away from the country club atmosphere.

Nikki: But a Boston Magazine article says that waitlists for full membership are years long, membership dues are on the rise, and members are proud to belong.

Nikki: Perhaps most important, 30 somethings continue to apply and want in.

Nikki: So given that they're still relevant, given that they're a thing people want to do, I think we should talk about some of the Ism claims about country clubs that were tossed around in this episode and then whether there's any proof of truth.

Nikki: Okay, so we'll start with Elitism so that's, again, the idea of exclusivity, that idea that they come to you, not the other way around.

Nikki: And at least in the instance of the elite country and golf clubs, this definitely sounds like it holds true.

Nikki: So that Boston Magazine article I mentioned a minute ago does a deep dive into Boston based country clubs, including Brookline, which was that first one I mentioned at the top of this segment, and then another one founded shortly thereafter.

Nikki: Called the country club.

Nikki: It offers a fair amount of proof that this is the way things go down.

Nikki: Specifically, it talks about Tom Brady and Giselle Bunchon, who at one point in time were kind of the first couple of Boston and of Massachusetts because he played for Patriots.

Nikki: Thank you.

Nikki: They tried to get entry, and it took several years before they finally did, and apparently it raised some feathers.

Nikki: The article says that Town and country magazine once wrote, in the course of the country club's history, the list of people who have been turned away could well rival the fame of those it has accepted.

Nikki: So on this note, the Piedmont Driving.

Salina: Club, I'm like that.

Salina: I'd like to think of, no offense, Tom or Giselle, but there's something that's kind of like, yeah, you'll wait your turn, buddy.

Salina: Don't you have enough?

Nikki: On this note, the Piedmont Driving Club here in Atlanta, which I actually think may have been the inspiration for Beaumont in the episode I was wondering, is invitation only, and the initiation fees are estimated to be at about $90,000 a year.

Salina: Perfectly acceptable.

Nikki: I think I put this here.

Salina: Wait, what?

Salina: Oh, that's right, because that's not just an initiation fee.

Salina: It's like that's what they're annually paying to be involved.

Nikki: That one's the initiation fee.

Nikki: I don't think I have the annual fee written down.

Salina: I'm like that golf course better be amazing.

Salina: Yeah, and you bet I'll be rolling down it.

Nikki: Put a pin in that because we're going to talk a little bit about membership fees.

Nikki: I think I put this here because I didn't have anywhere else to put it, but I found this article in the AJC from 2012 about a pretty significant kerfuffle at this club.

Nikki: The antics in said kerfuffle are pretty hilarious, let's just say maybe proof that money doesn't buy you class and that no one is immune from the effects of alcohol.

Nikki: But the article also is laden with proof of exclusivity at clubs like this.

Nikki: Despite how bad the kerfuffle made them look, members would not speak to the press.

Nikki: Even friends of members declined to comment.

Nikki: So there's definitely some mystery there.

Salina: Are you going to tell us about any of the kerfuffles?

Nikki: It's kind of silliness.

Nikki: So apparently this one guy was a member and he was embarrassed, so of some of the things he saw over this.

Nikki: Like, I think there was a tournament in town or something.

Nikki: So he wrote a private letter to the president of the country club, which was then somehow leaked and published publicly on Deadspin or something, I can't remember exactly where.

Nikki: But essentially he laid out some really specific examples.

Nikki: They were very loud.

Nikki: This group of men was very loud.

Nikki: One man passed out drunk on a barbecue, a barbecue that was not turned on.

Nikki: Like a grill that was not turned on, but he passed out on it.

Nikki: There was a wedding reception that was happening and the members had, or the guests repeatedly had to ask the men to keep it down.

Nikki: There was something about like, a contest between the men to pick a golf ball up with their b*** cheeks.

Salina: They don't really grow up, do they?

Salina: I know some do.

Nikki: I have no comment on that.

Salina: I have lots of comments on it, but this is your extra sugar.

Nikki: So actually, let's talk about sexism.

Nikki: On that note, you're going to say.

Salina: Actually, let's talk about sex.

Nikki: Sexism was something Julia talked about.

Nikki: This one, unfortunately, also seems to be true, at least partially.

Nikki: So.

Nikki: In 2017, the Charles River Country Club in Massachusetts found itself at the center of a couple of antidiscrimination claims after they invested several million dollars into club renovations, most notably including a more than $1 million renovation of the men's locker rooms.

Nikki: What was so egregious is that it included a men's only bar.

Nikki: At the time, no women served on the club's board.

Nikki: So a member who the club later painted as a disgruntled whistleblower, filed a complaint with the state Attorney General.

Nikki: After a barrage of bad press and an investigation which included interviews with female members who said they've never experienced discrimination, it was determined that the men's only bar was not discriminatory since it was part of a men's locker room.

Salina: What year was this?

Nikki: 2017.

Salina: Oh, that's very recent.

Nikki: I'm glad you're catching on to that because I'm very specifically pulling out the years and noting when certain things happened.

Nikki: That's very strategic.

Nikki: So I want to like sort of a parentheses to that story.

Nikki: So they were found not guilty of discrimination.

Nikki: But that Boston Magazine article I mentioned a minute ago, he's like a roving reporter and really committed to his job because he found a way into some of the most exclusive golf clubs, including this one.

Nikki: And he said, as I take in the scene, I can't help but notice that I do not, in fact, seem to be inside a men's locker room.

Nikki: The actual locker room is on the other side of a wall, separated from the dining room, like the bathroom of any public restaurant.

Nikki: So they were found not guilty of discrimination, but he's saying, I don't know, man, maybe some discrimination.

Nikki: So to bring this one a little closer to home, I have to share that the Augusta National Golf Club here in Georgia, which is host to the exclusive and elite Masters Golf Tournament, which is really hallowed ground in the golfing world, only recently amended policy to admit women as members.

Nikki: In 2012, US.

Nikki: Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice was among the first women admitted into the club.

Nikki: And this is not related to sexism, but I'm going to put it here because it's related to Augusta National.

Nikki: The club admitted its first black member in 1990, which is a nice segue to the next piece that I want to talk about, which is racism.

Nikki: The very short version as it relates to Augusta National is that both moves that is, allowing women members and black members followed significant public controversy.

Nikki: Okay, so racism, we talked about it earlier, antisemitism.

Nikki: This has some massive historical truth to it.

Nikki: As I mentioned, the top exclusion of people on a race basis ensured that country clubs were not reflective of the nation's broader diversity and consequently led to the proliferation of country clubs to accommodate those people.

Nikki: I think a lot of years has a lot has changed in the intervening years around public perception, around race and country clubs.

Nikki: So top country clubs do now admit black members, but I still think something's going on behind the doors.

Nikki: And I say that to say I found a 2009 Golf Digest article that highlighted the legacy of a significant 1990 controversy which ultimately ensured greater racial diversity in golf clubs.

Nikki: So essentially, Shoal Creek Golf Club in Alabama did not admit black members.

Nikki: This is 1990, and it sounds like that was not a secret.

Nikki: That was just a rule of the club.

Nikki: So they were set to host the 1990 PGA Golf Championship when the club's founder started a firestorm.

Nikki: When he publicly commented that the club would not be pressured to admit black members specifically, he said, quote, this is our home, and we pick and choose who we want.

Nikki: Ultimately, the club was forced to accept black members when the PGA considered moving the tournament and sponsors pulled advertising.

Nikki: So as a compromise, they admitted Louis J.

Nikki: Willie, a prominent businessman in the area who was black, to be an honorary member as he awaited the full membership waiting period.

Nikki: After the incident, PGA changed tournament selection rules requiring host clubs to have inclusive membership requirements, and golf became arguably more accessible to blacks in the United States.

Nikki: So it was after this controversy that Augusta National chose to admit black members.

Salina: Okay, so nothing actually happened there.

Salina: They got called on the carpet, even though they should have been called on the carpet.

Salina: I'll tell you the reason I'm saying that is because I seem to remember some like when Tiger Woods first went to the Masters, I feel like maybe we were in middle school or something, and I could have sworn that there was some controversial stories out at the time, but that was like 96 or 97.

Salina: So I can't remember exactly what they were.

Salina: But they were definitely swirling around Augusta.

Nikki: So without having the proof right in front of me, I'll say that what I read around admitting women.

Nikki: For instance, it was 2012 before they admitted women.

Nikki: But I found a couple of articles that, like, in 2000, there was a huge controversy.

Nikki: It feels like some of these issues because we are Georgia based and I'm particularly interested in the Masters in Augusta National.

Nikki: Just personally, I read these things and it feels like every couple of tournament years, another one of these things will pop up that has been simmering for a long time.

Nikki: So I say that to say in early 2000, I was doing my research, found articles in early 2000 where they still didn't admit women until 2012.

Nikki: So I think this issue of race is something probably that was controversial over the years, but somehow just sort of like not acknowledging it in the press.

Nikki: Like the 2000 women's issues, they wouldn't even acknowledge that in the press.

Nikki: They just said, we're not going to comment on that.

Nikki: So I think that's how they weathered the storm for so long.

Nikki: But they saw what happened in Shoal Creek in Alabama around race and decided to get ahead of it.

Nikki: I was going to add a little.

Salina: Piece isn't that sad?

Salina: Ahead of it in 1990.

Salina: Right?

Salina: Good job, guys.

Nikki: I was going to add a little piece about Tiger Woods and sort of his legacy in golf.

Nikki: And it's interrelated to this segment, but it takes us sort of a bridge too far.

Nikki: But I think Tiger Woods, for a lot of reasons, is groundbreaking in golf history.

Nikki: And unfortunately and or fortunately, I think his race plays a part in that.

Nikki: So the numbers were a little hard to come by, but that Golf Digest article gave this example.

Nikki: So we're jumping back into race.

Nikki: Dr.

Nikki: Robert Sims, who practices occupational medicine, grew up a few minutes from the Detroit Golf Club in a city where three fourths of the population is black.

Nikki: In his youth, there were no black members at the club.

Nikki: That's what he said.

Nikki: The first was accepted in 1986.

Nikki: Today there are 60 blacks among the 800 strong membership doctors, dentists, businessmen, lawyers, judges, and the mayor.

Nikki: That doesn't seem like that still not inclusive enough, still not reflective enough.

Nikki: Sort of related to this.

Nikki: That man I mentioned a minute ago who was let in as an honorary member at Shoal Creek, he said that in in an article I found, like five years after he had been admitted, he was still the only Black member that had been admitted.

Nikki: So take away from that what you will.

Nikki: So after reading all of these things, the one question that just continued to stick out to me was, how do they get away with it?

Nikki: High prices.

Nikki: I understand.

Nikki: Exclusivity I get.

Nikki: But sexism, racism, and out there in the public discourse?

Nikki: So just how are they carrying on with that?

Nikki: It's not even necessarily behind closed doors.

Nikki: So I found a Sports Illustrated article that talks about this.

Nikki: There's like a lot out there about country clubs.

Nikki: Sports Illustrated posted this article in 2019, so let that sink in for a second.

Nikki: Not very long ago, it was ostensibly about a Scottish golf club that had announced that week in 2019, quote, for the first time since its founding in 1744, it will admit women members.

Nikki: Perfect.

Nikki: So while this is an old issue, remember the first athletic clubs were started by men.

Nikki: And while country clubs expanded to include their wives and families, sexist policies, like the wife losing access after her husband's death existed.

Nikki: So it's not a dead issue.

Nikki: My first thought was, they're private, which really allows them to do whatever they want.

Nikki: That's at least partially true.

Nikki: But Sports Illustrated says that being private in and of itself is not an excuse for being discriminatory.

Nikki: And that's per the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion and national origin.

Nikki: That act is not exclusive to public places.

Nikki: It includes private businesses, but only when they're considered areas of, quote, public accommodation.

Nikki: So that would be like MercedesBenz Stadium here in Atlanta or a local AMC movie theater or a gas station.

Nikki: They're owned by private companies, but they serve the public.

Nikki: The federal laws do not govern private membership clubs with respect to their membership because by definition, those sorts of clubs are not open to the public and as a result, not covered by the law.

Nikki: So that is to say, if a club offers its amenities to the public.

Nikki: So if you can have your wedding reception there as a nonmember, then it would be illegal to discriminate.

Nikki: However, if they're not open to the public, there are no federal mandates that they have to adhere to.

Nikki: There's also some First Amendment protection at play here that allows like minded people to gather together.

Nikki: So legally, they're in the clear.

Nikki: It's just that whole moral thing they have to worry about.

Nikki: And indeed, as society changes, country clubs and golf clubs are finding themselves toe to toe with that moral debate.

Nikki: There's also a possibly more compelling argument for inclusivity demana money.

Nikki: You know that saying, Money talks and whatnot some golf clubs have faced losing sponsorships like we about a minute ago, or the opportunity to host elite golf tournaments over their discriminatory membership policies.

Nikki: In several instances, that's been enough to change their tone.

Nikki: Think back to Shoal Creek.

Nikki: There have also been tax and other financial implications for clubs with discriminatory policies.

Nikki: I think I mentioned one at the top of the segment.

Nikki: So those are all the allegations alleged.

Nikki: But speaking of money, we've been alluding to membership dues.

Nikki: We've been talking about how expensive they might be, but we haven't really shared what we're really talking about here.

Nikki: So in the main episode we talked about how maybe Suzanne was stretching the $39,000 Atlantic City jackpot by including country club dues.

Nikki: That's with good reason.

Nikki: So I found a 2021 list on of the most expensive and exclusive country clubs with publicly available data on fees and dues.

Nikki: And boy oh boy.

Nikki: So keep in mind, these are the only ones they could have find publicly available data, which means there are other ones that don't share their financials.

Nikki: The Madison Club in California, for instance, allegedly boasts a $200,000 initiation fee and then $33,000 in annual dues.

Nikki: That was number ten on the list of the top ten since I mentioned it.

Nikki: Augusta national was at number three with initiation fees estimated between 250,500 thousand and annual dues of 30,000.

Nikki: So I'm going to post the whole list on the blog.

Nikki: But spoiler alert, number one was Shanken Bay Golf Club in China.

Nikki: They didn't even publish annual dues, but the initiation fee is estimated to be a million dollars.

Salina: What do you get?

Salina: You can golf and play tennis.

Salina: I just can't imagine.

Salina: I'm like, this better be the I don't know, I've been in country clubs so I'm like, I know they're nice, but geez.

Nikki: So this is a little bit of an aside from where I was going to end this segment, but I will say, and I think we just talked about this, there are a lot of business deals that happen on golf clubs, golf ride access.

Nikki: There's a lot of access and you get access to a really exclusive group of people that you need access to.

Salina: Sorry, my plea is showing someone I.

Nikki: Meant, I think that story of the man in Detroit, I think that might have said he actually belonged to a couple of country clubs so that he could sort of bounce between and gain from the I mean, I'm putting words into their mouth, but I imagine that's the point.

Salina: It's just like the antithesis of who I am as a person.

Salina: Yeah, which I know you Phil, but.

Nikki: I want to end this segment by sharing something that maybe it's not.

Nikki: So the stats vary across sources, but they're somewhere in the order of about 10,000 to 15,000 country clubs operating across the US.

Nikki: I mentioned maybe five or six.

Nikki: So that is to say they're not all racist, they're not all sexist, they're not all even that elite.

Nikki: They're just businesses offering a community for their members, a place for people to gather on the weekends and socialize with other families while maybe getting in some physical fitness.

Nikki: Along the way, as I researched, I found a lot of quotes from members, even at their really exclusive clubs, who talked about how integral the club is to their family.

Nikki: That's where their kids learned to swim.

Nikki: That's where they made their best friends.

Nikki: That's where they spent their summers.

Nikki: So I don't want the takeaway from this segment to be that country clubs are bad.

Nikki: I don't think they are inherently.

Nikki: I just think it's important that we educate ourselves on things like this.

Nikki: So, again, knowing, for instance, how prolific racism and sexism still seem to be in really influential parts of our society and among people who lead and represent us, and that maybe these are the places they're choosing to gather that feels important.

Nikki: So if you're a member of a country club, if you're curious about one, like my father in law is in a country club because he loves to golf there's, to my knowledge, nothing sexist or elitist about the club he's in.

Nikki: He's just in a part of Georgia where golf clubs are very popular.

Salina: Well, which one is it?

Salina: Tell everybody what's his member number?

Salina: We're going to go get free drink.

Nikki: So I used to say, we don't want to paint with a broad brush here.

Nikki: I wanted to share that today because I felt like the episode was very one sided, so I wanted to offer the proof of things, or the knot proof, as it were.

Nikki: But country clubs aren't necessarily bad.

Nikki: Just wanted to share.

Nikki: So that's been this week's edition of Extra Sugar.


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