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Designing Women S3 E16 - You Make the Money, You Make the Rules

Updated: Jun 1, 2023

Oh no! It’s trouble in paradise for Mary Jo and JD when he loses his job and goes from business trips to casseroles. Elsewhere, Suzanne and Anthony squabble over their health club – and we finally meet Tovah, Charlene’s psychic!

Wait, wait…we see a “Salina’s Sidebar” about astrology and other mysticism in your future. And stick around for this week’s “Extra Sugar” – Shacking Up: A History.

Some reads:

Come on, let’s get into it!



Salina: Hey, Nikki.

Nikki: Hey, Salina.

Salina: And hello, everyone, and welcome to Sweet Tea and TV

Salina: Hey, y'all.

Salina: Hey.

Nikki: We're early today.

Nikki: We're early today in the morning, and it's making my brain work hard.

Salina: Well, yeah, you know, that happens five days a week, though, right?

Nikki: Whatever.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: But this is a day where we could really rest our brains until, like, 05:30 a.m..

Salina: That's right.

Salina: It's not that early anymore, but we have well, we have this also later in the day, but we have coffee.

Nikki: Oh, we always have coffee.

Salina: And I feel like we have something to share about coffee.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Which is basically and you all may have seen this in our Instagram stories, but if you didn't, we officially cemented our love for coffee.

Salina: We took a beginner's barista training.

Nikki: I would have just said, we're basically baristas now.

Salina: Okay, well, I would have said, I guess that makes us certified coffee lovers.

Salina: Turn the recording machine off.

Salina: You can tell who does the work around here.

Salina: It's not me.

Nikki: She's going to turn the sound box off.

Salina: That barista class was so fun.

Nikki: That was like, our first probably like, our first official sweet tea and TV outing field trip.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: Also, there was, like, a pandemic for a long time.

Salina: You have two children.

Nikki: It is only tangentially related to the podcast.

Nikki: It's really just a chance for us to go drink coffee after hours.

Salina: I think no matter what, we would have done it probably, but I think we also were like, this is like, content.

Salina: Right.

Salina: But I do want to give, like, a shout out to the place, which we've mentioned before.

Salina: This is rushing trading.

Salina: This is up the road from us in Sugar Hill, suburbs of Atlanta, for those who are going sugar Hill delicious sounding.

Salina: What's that?

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I can't remember exactly.

Salina: Oh, I plugged their baby biscuits.

Salina: That's what I did a long time ago.

Salina: Yeah, but they're a breakfast and lunch spot owned by a mom daughter duo.

Salina: Obviously they have delicious coffee, but they also have great food in the restaurant itself.

Salina: It's just really cute.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: And we got to meet with one of the co founders, who is the one that led the class for us, and she was telling us I bring this up specifically because you said it's really cute.

Nikki: So much of it was homegrown.

Nikki: Like, they did so much of it DIY and so much of it with family and friends because they were just starting out.

Nikki: They were a small business, and so they get so much credit for how cute it is because it was all theirs.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: And they're, like, bringing in family to help, all of that's just really, I don't know.

Salina: Nice.

Salina: Maddie was the she still is the person that we worked with, and I just want to give a shout out to her specifically as well and say thank you.

Nikki: Thanks, Maddie.

Nikki: That's fun.

Nikki: We made latte art.

Salina: We did.

Salina: And that's what I was going to ask, maybe you're telling me already, but what was your favorite part?

Nikki: I thought the science behind coffee was really interesting.

Nikki: I feel like my husband and I were talking about it before we went, and he said, I feel like you and Salina probably know more about coffee than the average person.

Nikki: Like maybe the part about the history of it and the science of it won't surprise you.

Nikki: Or like the difference between a latte and an Americano or espresso and fresh pressed coffee or whatever.

Nikki: He's like, I don't feel like that stuff's really going to surprise you.

Nikki: But there was actually a lot that surprised me.

Nikki: There was one thing that you already knew, which is there are like, 250 varieties of coffee, but only two are sold commercially.

Nikki: That blew my mind.

Nikki: I think about that as I'm refilling my coffee maker pretty often and I'm like, is it Arabica?

Nikki: Is it robusto?

Nikki: I just don't know.

Nikki: Yeah, so I really liked that part.

Nikki: I thought making the coffee was fun, for sure because we got to use her fancy espresso machine and that was very cool.

Nikki: But I just thought the history of it all was very the history and the science behind it was very interesting.

Salina: Well, you also went ahead and answered my next question.

Salina: What did you learn that surprised you?

Nikki: Nothing.

Salina: I just think that's so amazing that you just went there.

Salina: It's almost like we're trained to ask people questions in an interview style.

Salina: I anticipated, except I'm still bad because I'm going to come back and tell you what I was going to ask.

Salina: So I'll just say for me that I really love the whole thing.

Salina: I can't believe I found out how long it was.

Salina: It was three and a half hours, 4 hours.

Salina: I was like, that's a long time.

Salina: What did it do with all of that time?

Salina: But it really flew by.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So my absolute favorite thing out of everything we did, I think, was the food pairing.

Nikki: Oh, yeah.

Salina: I think it's because obviously I'm familiar with wine pairings, but I just never thought of coffee in that way.

Salina: Right.

Salina: I would have never paired a coffee with cucumber to bring out to make it taste different, to accentuate the flavors and all of that.

Salina: It makes a ton of sense.

Salina: I mean, coffees do taste incredibly different from one to the next.

Salina: I also thought it was really interesting to learn about this idea that it's so affected by whether it's the temperature in the room or like I knew about the water and stuff, I have always been told is your most important part to brewing.

Salina: But it sounds to me like every single part is important.

Salina: And if one thing goes down, the whole ship sinks.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: So working those machines well, we just worked in one machine.

Salina: I want to be very clear.

Nikki: Well, two if you count the bean grinder.

Nikki: That's true.

Salina: So I've always found those just looking at them, and you saw my reaction in the restaurant, I was nervous to do it.

Salina: I look at people doing those, working those machines, and I always feel like it seems a very daunting task.

Salina: So to just get back there and actually be able to give it a shot myself, it was just a ton of fun.

Salina: The latte art, like you mentioned, just kind of seeing the basic process.

Salina: If I ever kick up this steamer I have here because I have to clean it, and that seems like a lot of work.

Salina: But if I ever get the, like, at least I'll have a starting point.

Salina: I kind of know what to do.

Salina: Hopefully, I won't have forgotten everything.

Salina: I'll give you a call.

Nikki: I have a little frother that came with my Nespresso that I used to have, and I got rid of the Nespresso when I got a new coffee machine.

Nikki: But I kept the frother, and it's not as hard to clean as the built in one on the machine.

Nikki: So I did try doing it using almond milk just for, like, funsies, and it didn't turn out so great.

Nikki: And we had actually talked about that in the class because I don't eat or drink a lot of dairy.

Nikki: I just try to stay away from it.

Nikki: So regular milk is actually the best way to make latte art.

Nikki: But she said oat milk is a good substitution or a good alternative.

Nikki: And I have not tried it with oat milk yet.

Nikki: I tried it with almond milk.

Nikki: So I do have some oat milk at home.

Nikki: I'm going to try it, and I will report back.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: So her putting some oat milk and some things that night, I hadn't really okay.

Salina: Sometimes when things are really trendy, I put up, like, big barricades on trying it because I don't know, what was it, three, four years ago?

Salina: Maybe a little bit longer, but everybody started talking about how gray oat milk was.

Salina: I was just like, okay.

Salina: And so it sort of turned me off of it.

Salina: Yeah, I get it now.

Salina: It's like there's a reason that things get trendy and popular, right?

Salina: Because they're good.

Salina: So that was really nice as well.

Salina: We learned that Cold brew has the highest caffeine content.

Salina: I don't think either one of it did we?

Nikki: I did not know that, no.

Nikki: And she made us a pressed coffee or not a pressed coffee, a pour over, which I also and we talked about this in the class as well.

Nikki: I always thought a pour over was, like, a second rate choice because Salina's favorite coffee is dark roast at Starbucks.

Nikki: And if you get it after a certain time, they're always like, we have to do a pour over.

Nikki: And the way they say that to me, I always registered that as, you're going to get a crappy cup of coffee.

Nikki: Sorry about that.

Nikki: But if that's your only option.

Nikki: You're like, okay, whatever.

Nikki: It actually turns out it's because it's the most labor intensive, which should have occurred to me and it just didn't.

Nikki: But she was sort of saying it actually makes kind of the best cup of coffee that way to do a pour over.

Nikki: So she made this one right before as we were jacked up on like seven lattes because we literally made all these different lattes and Salina made it a personal challenge to drink them all.

Salina: I looked at Nikki when we got back and I was like, I'm coffee drunk.

Nikki: Never sleep again.

Nikki: I was coffee drunk for like a day and a half.

Nikki: The whole next day, my head was a little not quite right.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I also think I also don't do a lot of dairy.

Salina: And I think having all that dairy, I think my body was like, what are you doing?

Salina: What are you doing today?

Nikki: Can I add two more things?

Salina: Oh, my gosh.

Salina: Please.

Nikki: One was another most interesting thing I learned, which again, is something maybe like, logically I knew, but it wasn't until she said it out loud.

Nikki: A lot of people think that espresso is just going to jack them up and they're going to be so jacked up on espresso.

Nikki: The difference between espresso and a regular coffee is actually just that espresso is concentrated, so you get an immediate spike in energy that fades out later.

Nikki: Whereas with regular coffee, it kind of takes a little while to filter through your body and then you get the spike.

Nikki: I think I knew that at some point, or if I thought about it longer, I would have known that.

Nikki: But that sort of changed some things for me.

Nikki: That was one other interesting thing I learned.

Nikki: And then one thing that I loved is she gave us certificates for completing the class and I have not framed mine yet, but I am going to.

Nikki: And I'm going to hang it over my little coffee area in my dining room.

Nikki: But that was one of the things I loved was the little certificate.

Salina: It's on my fridge right now.

Salina: I'm not sure what to do about it.

Nikki: It felt so official.

Salina: I know I've thought about putting it in this room.

Salina: Like, I just start putting more things from the podcast in here, but that's going to take some work to go get it framed.

Salina: And I know how I am, so we'll see.

Salina: I also had just one more thing I wanted to talk about, which was the Cloudland Canyon coffee.

Salina: This is like a local place.

Nikki: Have you tried it yet?

Salina: Yes, I haven't tried it yet.

Salina: Oh, it's good.

Nikki: Is it?

Salina: I really like it a lot.

Salina: It's pretty darn delicious.

Salina: And I just wanted to say that I love that both the restaurant and the coffee they use are both women owned businesses.

Salina: And with that, Nikki in my best transition to date, would you like to talk about another female owned business, the Sugar Bakers.

Nikki: That was well done.

Nikki: That was well done.

Nikki: Yes.

Nikki: Let's talk about this week's episode, which we are at season three, episode 16, Miss Meal Ticket.

Nikki: So JD's temporary stay at Mary Joe's house lasts longer than expected when he loses his job.

Nikki: Meanwhile, Julia tries to shake Charlene's belief in psychics.

Nikki: This one aired March 20, 1989.

Nikki: And we're calling this one you make the Money, you make the rules.

Nikki: It's written by IMDb says LBT.

Nikki: The credits say Pam Norris.

Nikki: Oh, this is a Pam Norris episode.

Nikki: And I wasn't sure how much to make of that call out.

Nikki: I actually was just going to change it in the notes, but I wanted to call it out, actually, because we haven't seen a lot that didn't include LBT.

Nikki: In one way or another.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: And the credits say this one was just Pam Norris.

Salina: Well, I'll be.

Nikki: So I wanted to point that out.

Nikki: And it was directed by Hal Holbrook.

Nikki: So general reactions and stray observations.

Nikki: You want to hit us with some general thoughts?

Salina: So it finally dawned on me.

Salina: I think yesterday I was looking back at this one to try and prepare.

Salina: So this is called Miss Mill ticket.

Salina: There was a movie in 1983 with Michael Keaton called Mr.

Salina: Mom.

Nikki: Oh, one of my favorite movies of all time.

Salina: Oh, shut up.

Salina: Of course.

Nikki: I love that movie.

Salina: Okay, well, then you'll know everything about it.

Nikki: You know it all about that.

Nikki: I've just seen the movie a lot.

Salina: I think this episode is LBT's response to that movie.

Nikki: Oh, my gosh.

Salina: So for those who don't know, should we tell them what it's about?

Nikki: Yes.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: And you can keep me honest, because I think I saw this movie when I was probably eight.

Salina: I can keep you on.

Salina: My mom really wanted me to see it.

Nikki: So cute.

Salina: You saw it last year.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I love that.

Salina: All right, so the gist is that Michael Keaton gets laid off and he switches roles with his wife.

Salina: So she returns to work.

Salina: He becomes a stay at home dad shenanigans ensue because he has no clue how to do it.

Salina: What I do remember enough, and I recall, is that so much of it has to be from his point of view.

Salina: We don't even really spend that much time with the mom.

Nikki: No.

Salina: So this is LBT's way of showing us the female side of that story.

Nikki: I don't know about that.

Nikki: And the only reason I'll say that is because I do think the mom loved working in Mr.

Nikki: Mom.

Salina: I don't think Mary Joe has a problem working.

Nikki: Oh, really?

Nikki: She said, I'm jealous of him.

Nikki: I want to be the one home and gardening.

Salina: And So wasn't listening.

Nikki: That was my entire takeaway from this episode, was that and actually, one of my general reactions is we don't spend a lot of time talking about what blew up between Mary Joe and JD.

Nikki: Just that something did.

Nikki: Yeah, they have this kind of blow up fight where she doesn't actually, in my opinion, share any of the things she shared with the women back at Sugar Bakers.

Nikki: She doesn't say, it really drives me crazy that I want to be home raising the kids.

Nikki: She says some version of that when she's talking to the ladies.

Nikki: It really drives me crazy that I'm the one that has to work.

Nikki: She says, Think about it from my perspective to JD.

Nikki: But she doesn't actually share what her perspective is in very much detail.

Nikki: So I got the sense that she does not want to be working.

Nikki: And if she had her druthers, she wouldn't be.

Salina: Maybe that's what LBT.

Salina: Thinks the woman's perspective would be if they gave her more whatever.

Salina: And let's not take away from Mary Joe the fact that I'm like, hold on, let me set up three points why I'm right.

Nikki: I hear what you're saying.

Salina: But the other thing is Mary Joe does love design and I think, wow, this gets into a larger conversation.

Nikki: Right?

Salina: Because you can love what you do, but you could also want to be home with your kids.

Nikki: And I took your point literally, that it was literally what the mom and Mr.

Nikki: Mom is thinking.

Nikki: Oh, yeah, this is LBT's take on what the female perspective could be.

Nikki: I think so, because that makes sense.

Salina: Because I think I would have to go back and watch the movie.

Salina: But I think probably because it's just funny, we do this role reversal in the then we probably just also still somehow find a way to silence the woman a little bit.

Salina: But she's working, so we're being progressive, right?

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: That just dawned on me and I thought that was even how the names.

Nikki: Kind of that's very funny.

Nikki: And I am a huge Mr.

Nikki: Mom fan.

Nikki: That didn't register with me at all very astute.

Salina: You were kind of already into your general reactions.

Salina: But is there anything else there you want to talk about or something else?

Nikki: I think I will say just to go back to something I was just saying a minute ago, anthony and Suzanne at the gym together, that mental picture some really needed like Levity in the episode and comic relief.

Nikki: Loved that.

Nikki: But I feel like between the time we spent maybe over there, we didn't give a lot of breathing room to what was happening to Mary Joe and JD.

Nikki: And we haven't really talked, I feel like a lot about their relationship.

Nikki: I can't remember if that's in this episode or it's a reaction, I think, in the next episode.

Nikki: But we don't talk so much about these relationships, so when they have a problem like this, it almost blindsides me.

Nikki: Like, this felt zero to 60 in some sort of way.

Nikki: Like, last thing we knew, everything was fine and now suddenly this one wrinkle happens and it all falls apart.

Nikki: And the whole point of a relationship is that you work through the wrinkles together, but they just dropped a nuclear bomb and walked away, is what it felt like.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I think that's a tough thing, that's with this style of sitcom where we're somewhere between the ones where you could basically come in and watch any episode by itself as a standalone, it's okay.

Salina: Or like a continued threat of storyline, it feels like maybe and I think maybe some of it is like an artifice of the fact that they don't know when they're first writing a show if that thing's even going to stick around or not.

Salina: So I think sometimes maybe as the show progressed, they were able to take some of those storylines and stick with them a little bit more.

Salina: But I agree.

Salina: I have some thoughts on that, but it's going to be in my don't like okay.

Nikki: And then the other general reaction I had was just right up there at the top that LBT, as far as I can tell, didn't write this one or have a hand in writing this one, actually.

Nikki: So to go back to your point, it's Pam Norris's perspective, right.

Nikki: So it's not bad.

Nikki: It's just different.

Nikki: And so it just inserts maybe a different once you know that you can't unknow that.

Salina: Sure.

Nikki: So I just thought about that a lot.

Salina: Right.

Salina: And maybe it's not as true to the characters or something.

Salina: Maybe she's not spent 80 episodes with them or whatever.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: Like, she's not nurtured this character through.

Nikki: So then to come in and just sort of make a uturn felt weird.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: So a lot to prom.

Salina: I know my other general reaction is kind of twofold, but one of the things that struck me as I was watching is in some ways, this feels like a time capsule because we get a snapshot of where the culture was with more women being in the workplace.

Salina: Probably at that time, someone would have to fact check me.

Salina: I should probably have fact checked myself, but probably more women at that time than ever before in the workplace.

Nikki: Seems fair.

Salina: We also get, like, these shifting roles between men and women in the home and at the workplace.

Salina: The role reversal of this one.

Salina: But JD can't make a casserole and we're an apron.

Salina: It just does feel like that's all in the sauce.

Salina: But while some of that kind of felt dated, I also felt like a lot of the themes that I saw feel almost painfully relevant today.

Salina: So we're not fully evolved.

Salina: This idea of one person being the breadwinner in a family or a couple, while another is the caretaker is certainly not dead and buried.

Salina: And I think these very traditional roles were on full display in this one, trying to figure out what to make of it.

Salina: I think in some ways, the culture is still trying to find out what to make of it.

Salina: I think the show also astutely looks at what's under that, and that's the balance in a relationship.

Salina: It's power dynamics.

Salina: When balance gets thrown or those power dynamics shift, it can take a toll.

Salina: Also, there's patriarchy, but that's always there.

Salina: Bringing in old stuff into new relationships that still feels relevant.

Salina: That's a classic.

Nikki: Sure.

Nikki: And not learning from the old stuff.

Nikki: So another thing I meant to say earlier was that Mary Joe was married to a man who his career was huge and important and he spent a lot of time working and that marriage didn't work out.

Nikki: So when she has the opportunity to have something ever so slightly different, she's not sure how to respond to that.

Nikki: And she responds to it in a negative way.

Salina: Yeah, but she also didn't even realize it dawns on her.

Salina: I think when the psychic comes in or whatever, it's not JD.

Salina: She needs to trace her anxiety back and it's to her marriage with Ted because they fought a lot about money, and I think that probably happened in different ways over the course of their relationship.

Salina: Early on in the show, we learned that she basically put him through medical school.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: That's a different fight on your hands.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: We know the Ted we know now is very materialistic.

Salina: So I imagine when he started making money, that was causing a lot of problems.

Salina: Probably because they live very frugally for a long time.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: I do realize that we're talking about fake people, but there are real things that happen in real life, too.

Salina: Another thing I think the episode says, without directly saying it, is that this is a mature relationship.

Salina: They are not 22.

Salina: They are established adults, they have careers, they have families.

Salina: I think it gets notably harder to merge lives when people are set in their ways.

Salina: And that also feels like an enduring theme.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: That's not even our straits.

Salina: That's just general.

Salina: That's just my 18 point general reaction.

Salina: You're welcome.

Salina: Straight.

Nikki: I have one fashion note.

Nikki: We have seen repeats of the costumes on this show.

Nikki: Yeah, I don't always catch them.

Nikki: I mean, I might look at something and be like, oh, yeah, I think we've seen some version of like, Julius Crisscross belt, but she's probably wearing the same one every single time.

Nikki: I just keep calling out the design, but this outfit that Mary Joe is wearing, which is sort of like a lime green shirt with a black pencil skirt, the reason I noticed it this time is because I had pulled it out specifically in a previous episode earlier this season.

Nikki: It was episode eleven, so we got a very obvious ReWare five episodes apart.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: I hear the show was aired out of order.

Salina: I don't know if that's happening still or not.

Salina: Honestly, it's hard to tell.

Nikki: I just call it out when it looks like it might be, but I.

Salina: Think you only get to wear that color once.

Nikki: It really seems like that's, like, a.

Salina: Lot of space in between.

Nikki: Pretty statement.

Nikki: Dress or outfit.

Nikki: Gym memberships.

Nikki: They're the worst.

Nikki: Do we all disagree on that?

Salina: We all have one.

Nikki: There's all of these requirements around them.

Nikki: You have to have a contract.

Nikki: God help you if you try to get out of the contract early.

Salina: Sure.

Nikki: So the fact that we had your whole segment on multilevel marketing pyramid schemes seems ringing some similar themes to me.

Salina: Yeah, because I think is she not recruiting exactly to get some kind of cut, and then isn't there some god awful percentage of people who it just comes out of their account monthly, but they don't actually ever work out at the gym?

Salina: It's, like, really high.

Salina: Yes.

Nikki: So Kyle got into a membership when he lived in Marietta and he was in college.

Nikki: He got into a membership and then moved to Swani and needed to get out of it.

Nikki: But it was cheaper just to pay monthly for the last six months or whatever than to try to get out of it.

Nikki: So he was literally living, like, counties away.

Nikki: I think it was paying for the stupid thing.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: That really triggered me.

Salina: Yeah, I don't do that.

Nikki: And then there were just some lines that I really loved and that also I felt like I had some comment on or just felt like it was worth talking about for a SEC.

Nikki: Okay, so Julia asked, how poor are we talking here?

Nikki: That line, do you remember this?

Nikki: She was saying, like, oh, yeah, she's.

Salina: All on board with him and this.

Salina: And then she was like, Wait, how.

Nikki: Poor are we talking?

Nikki: Yeah, the split reaction with which she went from, like, it's all love and whatever, to, Wait, hold on.

Nikki: How poor?

Nikki: That timing.

Nikki: And the line was so funny to me and so out of character for.

Salina: Her and not and not a lady of means.

Nikki: She just never would say that out loud.

Salina: She did.

Nikki: Right?

Nikki: And I was like, Wait, what just happened?

Nikki: Yeah, so that one was really funny.

Nikki: And then I think in that exact same scene, suzanne says, so you saying it doesn't matter if he has money is like Billy Joel singing I Love you just the way you Are to Christy Brinkley.

Nikki: Big deal.

Nikki: It wasn't like a laugh out loud.

Nikki: Like, I'm not rolling on the floor laughing line.

Salina: That's a good point.

Nikki: So freaking clever.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: That is very much so in the vein of my mother's humor.

Salina: But, like, throw in a couple of curse words and make it dirty, which really does make it a laugh out loud.

Salina: One I hate to tell you.

Salina: And I enjoy that kind of sense of humor because it's a really good point.

Nikki: It was super clever.

Salina: It's like when hot people are like, I don't understand what you're saying.

Salina: They're mean they're so nice to me, right.

Salina: What could be going on?

Nikki: Exactly.

Salina: So I really appreciate it.

Salina: And for someone who's so beautiful to see yes.

Salina: Sometimes I think there's a little bit of a blinder up.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So I love it.

Salina: Thanks for bringing it up.

Nikki: You're welcome.

Nikki: What strange did you have?

Salina: All of mine are birthday insights courtesy of the astrology.

Salina: Cold open.

Salina: So Mary Joe is a Gemini, meaning her birthday is somewhere between May 21 and June 21.

Salina: Some of the people I love most in the world are Gemini's.

Salina: Julia is a Scorpio, so her birthday falls somewhere between October 23 and November 21.

Salina: Now I feel like I'm like I also love some Scorpios.

Salina: Okay, so here's the other thing.

Salina: We've had birthdays in episodes for Anthony, Suzanne and Charlene.

Salina: Now, okay, it doesn't tell us what time it is, but would it be fair to extract those birthdays from the day the episode aired?

Salina: That's what I would do.

Salina: In that case, perfectly scientific.

Salina: We'll have all well, look what we're talking about.

Salina: We'll have all signs for our main cast.

Nikki: Oh, okay.

Salina: Which I don't know another way to do it unless we get further into the show and they reveal birthdays.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: I started to throw this to the Facebook Designing Women group that we're a part of, but then I don't know.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: I was like, is it too much?

Salina: Am I asking too much?

Salina: Of people?

Nikki: But I think someone to do your homework for you.

Salina: Kind of, yeah.

Salina: I felt bad about it.

Salina: Speaking of astrology, can we Salina sidebar?

Nikki: I guess it's a sidebar.

Nikki: Salina sidebar.

Nikki: She's got a keyboard looking for a reward by digging deep in the obscure, taking us on a detour.

Nikki: What you got Salina in Salina sidebar.

Salina: So in the episode, Charlene keeps telling Julia she's a typical Scorpio, which is an astrological sign.

Salina: Again, like I just said, for people born somewhere in October or November, I think.

Salina: I do actually want to say what astrology is because I think people, they know as much as, oh, this is sort of attached to a birthday or something, but I don't think they really understand what it is.

Salina: Generally.

Salina: I don't think people do.

Salina: So it's a study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world.

Salina: So for me, I would describe it like this.

Salina: Where and when you were born affects who you are.

Salina: It's literally written into the stars.

Salina: That's how I would do it.

Salina: That's nice.

Salina: Oh, well, thanks.

Salina: So that's more of how I've looked at it is like, when I was younger, it was like, will I ever find love?

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: But today it's more like a guide for personalities.

Salina: So it's more like, is this person going to be a pain in my a**?

Nikki: You're right.

Salina: That's how life shifts.

Nikki: The answer is probably going to be yes.

Salina: You hear that, kiddos?

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Also.

Salina: I understand where I sit.

Nikki: I'm crotchety.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: You annoy me.

Salina: Why?

Nikki: You're breathing.

Salina: I'm in my late 30s, that's why.

Salina: So, astrology, is it pseudoscience?

Salina: Absolutely.

Salina: But is it interesting?

Salina: Absolutely.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: I would never tell someone to put their full stock into it.

Salina: But as someone who's looked at it on and off over the years, the in depth stuff is kind of uncanny.

Salina: Nikki, you were born on August 9.

Salina: Allegedly, that means your sun sign is Leo.

Nikki: That's correct.

Salina: As in the lion.

Salina: There you go.

Salina: That's very nice.

Salina: According to my go to astrology app costar.

Salina: It's really good, y'all.

Salina: It's really good.

Salina: The sun determines your ego identity and your role in life.

Nikki: Okay?

Salina: It's the core of who you are and is the sign you're most likely to know already.

Salina: I think especially that last part reads true.

Salina: That's what I'm trying to say.

Salina: If you know nothing about astrology, you probably know your sun sign.

Salina: Okay, so for me, my birthday is May 13, just for the record, which makes me a Taurus or the bull.

Salina: Shut up.

Nikki: I read that Queen Elizabeth was a bull too.

Salina: She's may birthday.

Salina: Oh, she betsy.

Salina: She's April.

Salina: She seems to be April side.

Salina: Well, that's going to distract you.

Salina: Okay, so here's what people need to understand.

Salina: Your sun sign is only a drop in the astrological bucket.

Salina: Two other really important pieces are your Moon and your ascendant signs.

Salina: So today, Nikki, we're going to, one, talk about your Moon and Ascendant.

Salina: Can I assume that you don't know what those are?

Nikki: Yours, specifically.

Salina: Okay, is that true or are you lying to me?

Nikki: No, it's true.

Nikki: I don't know what you're talking about.

Salina: Okay, you will.

Salina: We're going to get into it.

Salina: And that's not an indictment.

Salina: I don't expect most people to know these things.

Salina: Number two, we're going to play a quick game.

Salina: It's called Is it me or is it you?

Salina: I'm going to give you a description based on our natal charts and then you'll guess.

Salina: Is it me or is it you?

Salina: Does that sound good?

Nikki: Sounds good?

Salina: That sounds like a nightmare.

Nikki: Terrifying.

Salina: Okay, so let's talk about the Moon sign first.

Salina: Your Moon rules your emotions, your moods and your feelings.

Salina: This is likely the sign you most think of yourself as like your true essential self, since it reflects your personality when you're alone or deeply comfortable.

Nikki: Oh, this will be good.

Salina: Your moon is in Taurus.

Salina: It's all coming together.

Salina: Meaning that your emotional self is very romantic and sentimental.

Salina: You are deeply loyal to the people you care about and try hard to maintain security and stability within those relationships.

Salina: You often feel powerless to fix messy situations, but your way of thinking through those things is sensible and practical.

Salina: For what it's worth, my moonsign is in PISCES, meaning my emotional self is empathetic, dreamy, sensitive and gentle.

Nikki: I don't know.

Nikki: Isn't my husband a PISCES?

Salina: He is.

Nikki: Oh my gosh.

Nikki: This is so full circle.

Salina: It's just all really coming together.

Salina: Oh, my gosh.

Salina: Let's talk about your ascendant.

Salina: Feel free to jump in with comments, but I assume you're processing because I'm reading you a lot of text.

Nikki: I didn't not one of those things that you said was like, no, that's not right.

Nikki: So that's interesting.

Salina: That's why you need all three.

Salina: And really, that's just still a sliver.

Salina: Okay, but your Ascendant is the mask you present to people.

Salina: It can be seen in your personal style and how you come off to people when you first meet.

Salina: Some say this part gets a little less relevant as you get older, but.

Nikki: You'Re still very young, crotchy just all around prickly.

Salina: What if I just told you your Ascendant is b*******?

Salina: Nikki, your Ascendant is in scorpio, meaning you come across as passionate, incisive, cunning, strategic, and perceptive.

Salina: Your intense and tenacious drive comes off as intimidating and powerful, if not malicious or aggressive.

Salina: I didn't write this.

Nikki: I'm a real treat.

Nikki: It is accurate.

Nikki: My ascending sign is b*******.

Salina: You're.

Salina: Julia, it me.

Salina: My Ascendant, like, my moon, is also in PISCES.

Salina: So I'm a tourist double PISCES, meaning I come across as kind, dreamy, imaginative, and sensitive.

Salina: Sure.

Salina: One of my friends said yes, and I was like, okay.

Salina: I don't think so, but all right.

Nikki: I think dreamy is the only word that's catching me.

Nikki: Oh, is, like, of that list everything else.

Nikki: I'm like, yeah, dreamy.

Nikki: I don't know that I would describe you that way.

Salina: Remember when we started a podcast and I was like, I can't wait for Reese Witherspoon?

Nikki: Yes, that's true.

Nikki: Good point.

Nikki: And that's where I'm getting caught.

Salina: Reese, we're waiting.

Salina: We're southern.

Salina: So you ready to play a game?

Nikki: I am.

Salina: All right, real quick.

Salina: When we're born, the planets were in specific houses.

Salina: So Libra, Taurus, Leo, et cetera, that positioning in astrology also helps to make up who you are.

Salina: The quiz relates to the positioning of those planets at your time of birth.

Salina: Okay, let's see.

Salina: Let's see where I am here.

Salina: All right.

Salina: Mercury determines how you communicate, talk, think, and process information.

Salina: It also indicates how you learn it is the mind's planet.

Salina: So is this description me, or is it you?

Salina: This person's intellect is persuasive, idealistic, and bold.

Salina: A natural leader.

Salina: They speak articulately and with confidence.

Salina: They use creativity and warmth to win others attention.

Salina: They may come off as overbearing or conceited.

Salina: Is it you, or is it me?

Salina: It's a dangerous game, isn't it?

Salina: It is.

Nikki: Oh, God, that's hard.

Nikki: You got to overbearing and conceited.

Nikki: And I was identifying potentially myself, and that and that's terrifying to say out loud.

Salina: Is that your answer?

Nikki: That's my answer.

Salina: You are correct.

Salina: Is it not?

Salina: Where I stumbled over articulately?

Salina: I'm like and they speak with great articulation levels.

Nikki: They're good with words.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: I have to close my eyes so I can focus on what she's saying.

Salina: Mars is the planet of aggression.

Salina: I know this answer.

Salina: It determines how you assert yourself, take action and the energy that surrounds you, particularly in your sex life.

Salina: Your ambitiousness and when you're angry.

Salina: I love that all those are like, together.

Salina: Not a good bucket, just a sexy, ambitious hard worker or something.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: Okay, so is this me or is this you?

Salina: Don't worry.

Salina: It's not about sex.

Salina: This person asserts themselves in a way that is quick and heady and they push things forward with a lot of energy, though sometimes without focus.

Salina: Is it you or is it me?

Nikki: I almost stopped you when you first started.

Nikki: It's you.

Salina: It's me.

Nikki: When you said you got through pushes things forward.

Nikki: I didn't even hear the second part before.

Nikki: I was like, just stop.

Nikki: That's Salina.

Nikki: That's Salina.

Nikki: I get it.

Nikki: That's you.

Salina: Yours actually says, they assert themselves in a way that is authoritative and persuasive and they push things forward with confidence and gusto.

Salina: Gusto.

Salina: So take that with you today.

Salina: With gusto.

Nikki: I need a tattoo that says with gusto.

Nikki: I need to remember that when I'm feeling self conscious or I'm questioning myself with gusto.

Salina: Nikki that's right.

Salina: This is the final question.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Jupiter and Saturn are the two social planets.

Salina: Jupiter rules idealism optimism and expansion.

Salina: It's also very philosophical.

Salina: Saturn rules responsibility, restrictions, limits, boundaries, fears and self discipline.

Salina: So who is this?

Salina: Is it me or is it you?

Salina: This person grows and finds understanding through detached analysis and intellectual pursuits.

Salina: They struggle with passions, intensity, malicious intentions, obsessive thinking and suspiciousness.

Salina: Is it me or is it you?

Nikki: Sips.

Nikki: I'm going to overthink this r1 quick.

Nikki: I think this one's me, but I feel like it's shades of both of us.

Salina: Are you ready for the answer?

Nikki: I'm ready.

Salina: Would you like to stake your claim?

Nikki: Me?

Salina: It is both of us.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: That's a trick question.

Salina: That's right.

Salina: I'm coming to my trick hearing it.

Nikki: And I was like, I don't know.

Nikki: This could be either one of us.

Nikki: Truthfully.

Salina: So I've got something for you here.

Nikki: There's more.

Salina: Just something between the gifts.

Salina: So here's what's cool about Costar.

Salina: Costar call me.

Salina: Is that it allows you to compare you and your friends charts.

Salina: So I was able to compare ours.

Salina: We are compatible across five out of seven areas moods and emotions, intellect and communication, sex and aggression, philosophies of life and senses of responsibility.

Salina: Which got me thinking we should start a podcast or something.

Nikki: I think that's a good idea.

Nikki: Do you think I could bring my gusto.

Nikki: Gusto.

Nikki: I was going to say anger and aggression.

Nikki: I don't know why those are the two that came to your stick to itiveness.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: I want to do something, but I just lost focus.

Nikki: Let me bring you back on board aggressively.

Salina: So, speaking of other things that we like like Costar, the app that tells you no, I'm just kidding.

Salina: You want to talk about what we liked in this episode?

Nikki: You're nailing the transitions.

Nikki: I think early morning might be your time.

Nikki: You're nailing it.

Nikki: I just had one thing I wanted to mention here, and that was the writing.

Nikki: And it comes back to this concept.

Salina: Good.

Nikki: Pam Norton.

Nikki: The writing was super top notch.

Nikki: In terms of the funny one liners.

Nikki: I will say the fight at the end between Mary Joe and JD.

Nikki: Felt very real.

Nikki: I don't know that they said everything they needed to say to have the conversation that needed to be had, but it felt real.

Nikki: And some of that, you'd argue, is acting, but a lot of it was just listening to the words and hearing like she said at one point, that's a really crummy thing to say.

Nikki: And I think we've all been in an argument with someone we really love before where we said, that's a really crappy thing to say.

Nikki: How dare you say that to me?

Nikki: And those things just felt really real to me.

Nikki: So I thought the writing was really good.

Salina: Okay, well, on that note, there is a perfectly written and delivered Suzanne line.

Salina: Mary Joe is confused as somewhere in the beginning that Suzanne somehow hasn't picked up on the fact that JD.

Salina: Is staying with her for a while.

Salina: And Suzanne says, oh, I must have been busy thinking about myself.

Salina: And I just want to say I think that's perfectly refreshing because I think lots of people do that and they don't admit it.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: Thank you, Suzanne.

Nikki: Thanks for being on you.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Authentic.

Salina: What else did you like?

Nikki: That's all I had that I liked.

Nikki: I'm ready to move on to didn't likes.

Salina: Okay, I will just say a plug again.

Salina: For Suzanne and Anthony's chemistry, it just continues to shine.

Salina: I love seeing them play off of one another and their whole dust up over this health club is pretty funny.

Salina: I want to be in that health club.

Salina: I want to see Anthony on the row machine.

Salina: I want to see her over, like, mean mugging them in the corner.

Salina: I want to see those interactions.

Salina: I also just have to tack on that I watched some sort of reunion between all of the cast, and the two of them also have that chemistry in real life.

Salina: And I think it's LBT.

Salina: Who said if the show had kept going on, which I think she means if Suzanne had stayed on the show or Delta Burke, eventually those two would have been married.

Salina: And so I love that that was somewhere in the back of her head.

Salina: I think it sort of encapsulizes articulate.

Salina: Yes, to a fault.

Salina: I think it sort of encapsulates, maybe why some of that chemistry is there, like they naturally have it and LBT.

Salina: Saw it for them.

Nikki: Yeah, that's a good point.

Nikki: I think it was so much ado about nothing as far as Suzanne was concerned because we all know she's spending her time in the sauna or sitting in the hot tub.

Nikki: She's not out there.

Nikki: Like, when you think about people at the gym, suzanne is not, like, moving the weights around.

Nikki: She is probably barely on the treadmill.

Nikki: Honestly, it's just not her vibe.

Nikki: And so she's all upset that she was going to run into Anthony.

Nikki: Meanwhile, Anthony's over here doing, like, aerobic step classes and like you said, probably on the rowing machine.

Nikki: She's never going to see him anyway.

Nikki: She's all worked up over nothing.

Salina: That's right.

Salina: Well, let's get into those don't likes.

Nikki: I said this earlier.

Nikki: This whole episode just felt zero to 60 to me.

Nikki: Like I said, I just said I thought the fight was really well written, and it was.

Nikki: But what I also said was that I didn't agree with everything she said.

Nikki: And so as she's fighting with him and as she's arguing with him, I'm sort of listening along.

Nikki: Listening along, but I'm not nodding and saying, yeah, these are all reasons to throw away a three year relationship, which, technically speaking, the relationship does not end in this episode.

Nikki: But one of the last lines is, we'll always have kroger.

Nikki: It feels very much like an ending, and this feels like such a dumb reason to end a relationship.

Salina: Yeah, I think you're right.

Salina: One thing that I took out, actually, from my general reactions, but I think this might be a good place to say it is she was very upset after the course of ten days.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: And so just as a support and I think it just kind of folds into what you're saying is this idea of, like, should she really I understand you might be nervous that someone doesn't have a job, but could you consider the fact that maybe this person also has savings?

Salina: That they're responsible enough that maybe they need a beat and maybe it's, like, beaten up on them a little bit for only ten days to go by and then be as upset as she was?

Nikki: And his response to her was actually the part where I nodded a little bit, because I think he got to some of that.

Nikki: He was like, I've been out of work ten days and suddenly you've got me, like, home gardening with curlers in my hair for the rest of my life, or whatever.

Nikki: And he wasn't wrong.

Nikki: And if Mary Joe were my friend, and she can still be my friend, if Annie Potts would like to be, I would say to her, just take a beat, let it marinate.

Nikki: Be authentic about your feelings.

Nikki: Tell him for sure.

Nikki: I just want you to know this is really uncomfortable for me.

Nikki: This is going against everything I've ever been trained to believe about a relationship.

Nikki: I'm a little bit jealous because I wanted to be home at this point in my life with the kids doing dinner or whatever.

Nikki: Be authentic.

Nikki: Don't hide it.

Nikki: But also don't throw the nuclear bomb and walk away over ten days.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: So it goes zero to 60.

Salina: And that's a fair point.

Salina: But maybe this is why can we really spoil a show this old?

Salina: JD.

Salina: Is really on the way out.

Salina: I've seen it looking ahead.

Salina: Even in just the episodes that he's in, he's in a few more, maybe.

Salina: And so for me, the thing that I didn't like is if this is the exit, I'm not sure it's the clearest one, but maybe that's the intention.

Salina: And this is why miscommunications happen in relationships.

Salina: You read it as an end.

Salina: I wasn't sure, and I don't think until we get to the next episode is it really?

Salina: I was like, oh, that was a really ambiguous conversation at the end.

Salina: I might have still thought we were in a relationship.

Nikki: So oopsie, Salina's still showing up for.

Salina: Dates, still at the Kroger, just waiting on you.

Salina: Yeah, I think it was when he.

Nikki: Said, we'll always have the Kroger.

Nikki: And I rewatched it again, like you did probably yesterday morning, and Mary Joe says, our relationship is moving to a new chapter.

Nikki: I don't quite know what it is.

Nikki: And JD responded with, but we'll always have the Kroger, I think was the order it went in.

Nikki: And his felt very final to me.

Nikki: Whereas if I were in his shoes and he said when he was arguing with her, I expected to learn things about each other.

Nikki: I didn't expect to learn so much so fast.

Nikki: And I think her insecurities about their relationship were very eye opening for him, and I think he felt very out of it.

Nikki: Whereas, to your point, Mary Joe was still pretty ambiguous, ambiguous about things.

Salina: My other don't like is also about JD.

Salina: Because I have to ask, you going to miss him.

Salina: He's wound up in this category an awful lot.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: So he's really beloved by fans.

Salina: I remember having a soft spot for him coming in, but I don't know, I think it's Richard Gilliland that I will miss.

Nikki: I think we've talked about that a few times.

Nikki: He's the really likable part, but when you parse out his lines, you're sort of like he's kind of an ahole.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: A b*******, if you will.

Salina: Right.

Salina: I think he has a certain attractive quality to him.

Salina: So if you put it in like someone if you put those lines on someone who's not quite TV attractive and then also who doesn't have the chemistry that he has, I think you got a different situation on your hands.

Nikki: He's had a couple of dark points, I will say.

Nikki: His comments at the end of this episode, again, like the whole argument, I was like, what is Mary Joe talking about?

Nikki: And then he starts talking like, yeah, he's not wrong.

Nikki: So that might potentially, if this is the last time or one of the last times we see him, it's not a bad exit.

Nikki: As far as I'm concerned.

Nikki: That almost made me respect him more for standing up for himself and pushing back on her for being what I felt like was a little irrational.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Do you want to rate this one, sucker?

Nikki: I do.

Salina: Are you sure?

Salina: Did you rate it?

Salina: Oh, my God.

Salina: You look like someone who didn't rate it.

Nikki: Can I tell you how many times I looked at this section of my notes and I was like, something's missing here.

Salina: The rating.

Nikki: The rating.

Nikki: That would be the thing that's missing.

Salina: You want me to go and think about it?

Nikki: Yeah, why don't you do that?

Nikki: Salina?

Salina: So mine and your scale today is flimsy psychic predictions.

Nikki: Yeah, that was what I said.

Salina: That's a pretty good I like that one.

Salina: I gave it a 4.2 out of five.

Salina: I think it's a well constructed episode.

Salina: It does have these more serious notes with Mary Joe and JD.

Salina: But the b plot, as we talked about earlier, that helps keep it light.

Salina: We even bring the psychic one together with the main storyline, which was a nice touch.

Salina: And as you know, I'm a big.

Nikki: Fan of character growth.

Salina: I think we may have seen this differently.

Salina: I feel like we legitimately get some of that here because she has a breakthrough mid episode or towards the end of the episode.

Salina: And while I do think it's vague, I think it's more realistic that Mary Joe and JD.

Salina: Didn't wholesale make up at the end.

Salina: They weren't like, no, I love you, and everything that's happened these past couple of days is totally fine.

Salina: I thought that was good.

Salina: So, all in all, solid episode for me.

Nikki: And so when I rated this very thoughtfully and carefully, I came up with four out of five because I don't disagree with anything you said.

Nikki: I just really hate that if this was the end of things for them, that wasn't a good ending for things for me.

Salina: We'll see, but we don't know yet.

Salina: Technically.

Nikki: That's right.

Nikki: That's correct.

Salina: Technically.

Salina: Wink, wink.

Salina: Oh, man.

Salina: We're ruining designing women for someone.

Salina: And I feel really terrible about it, but that feedback might appear from me in the next episode.

Nikki: But if I watched this episode and I were left on that cliffhanger of will they, won't they, and it was falling for me, reading JD's comments was falling on the side of won't they?

Nikki: They ain't coming back.

Nikki: That was not a great ending for me.

Nikki: I feel like that was not a good I needed more closure.

Nikki: She said they'd been together three years, which also I did not realize it had been that long.

Nikki: Yeah, that's a really three years you mentioned earlier.

Nikki: This is a mature relationship.

Nikki: They are full grown adults, and that comes with its own set of barriers to a relationship.

Nikki: But it feels like they were also old enough to know that maybe we should stick through this one first.

Nikki: Really big fight.

Nikki: This was their first really big fight we've seen them have about something significant in life, like even over merging families, going on their vacation with their staycation with the kids.

Nikki: They didn't really fight.

Nikki: There was no conflict there.

Nikki: This was the first major conflict we've seen.

Nikki: And Mary Joe ran running like a baby.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I can't remember if I've read why he leaves off the show, but I wonder if it somehow kind of ties into his marriage to Jean Smart.

Salina: Maybe they're like I think they're coming close to starting their family.

Salina: Maybe he's just ready to move on and do other things.

Salina: But yeah, I think we can all agree that this maybe isn't the send off that he deserves after this amount of time.

Salina: So who won the episode and who buttered our biscuits?

Nikki: Tova.

Salina: Oh, my God.

Nikki: Is that what you said?

Nikki: Yes.

Nikki: It's like we're we're aligned in our.

Salina: Ascending five out of seven.

Nikki: She brought Mary Joe around and she got some money out of Julia.

Salina: That's right.

Salina: It's not too shabby.

Salina: Yeah, same to you.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I didn't say the money out of Julia, but I think she is.

Nikki: I'm tacky.

Salina: I did help Mary Joe realize why she was really upset about JD.

Salina: Yeah, that's a pretty significant participation in the episode.

Salina: It's true.

Salina: Who lost the episode?

Salina: And who served us lumpy?

Nikki: Grady.

Nikki: I can't help but think about Mary Joe's kids.

Nikki: I know I'm really guilty of going, like, super meta about things, but I just feel like they've had a lot of upheaval the last couple of years.

Nikki: Again, we say it's been three years that Mary Joe and JD.

Nikki: Have been together.

Nikki: Just doesn't feel like that long.

Nikki: And it feels like these kids have been in some sense of upheaval, or.

Salina: Three years is a long time when you're under the age of 37.

Nikki: For sure.

Nikki: And now they've had this back and forth with JD.

Nikki: In their house and now not in their house.

Salina: They dragged them on that stupid staycation.

Nikki: Presumably all while being shuffled back and forth between Mary Joe and Ted.

Nikki: It just sounds like a lot I.

Salina: Just feel like they really lost.

Salina: I can't explain it, but I'm going to go with Ted.

Salina: Ultimately.

Salina: This whole thing was his fault.

Salina: Stupid Ted.

Salina: I'm just always going to go back to it.

Salina: I don't know.

Nikki: This is what it is.

Nikki: This is all Ted's fault.

Nikki: He put Mary Joe on a really negative trajectory way back when.

Salina: 80S things.

Nikki: JD.

Nikki: Talks about putting last year's reports on a computer and that's like, he's help the major activity of the day other.

Salina: Than getting he's got to, like, taking a team, right?

Nikki: It probably required a team.

Nikki: I think the computer probably took up a whole room.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: It was not their prime time.

Nikki: That felt very eighty s to me.

Nikki: And then there was a mention of Tom McCann shoes.

Nikki: I guess these came up when Tova said julia should avoid a shoemaker on a red horse.

Nikki: This is just an American brand of shoes.

Nikki: It was previously part of a large chain of retail stores.

Nikki: Today they're sold in Kmart and Sears.

Salina: But they used to be pretty exclusive, I think around this time period.

Nikki: That's right.

Nikki: Until the late 90s, tom McCann was one of the oldest and most successful shoe brands.

Salina: I feel like they probably made more money getting into Kmart.

Nikki: Probably, yeah.

Nikki: You take away all that overhead from having storefronts move yourself into Kmart where you can move products really quick to a large group of people.

Salina: Yeah, that's the dream, right?

Nikki: That's what we're going to do.

Salina: Perfect.

Nikki: I'm aiming for Walmart, not Kmart.

Salina: Coles, maybe.

Salina: Coles, yeah.

Nikki: Lauren.

Nikki: Conrad does pretty good at coles.

Salina: She does.

Salina: I've had a couple.

Nikki: And Daisy Fuentes.

Salina: Daisy.

Nikki: Okay, we got dreams.

Salina: Vera.

Nikki: Vera.

Nikki: That's true.

Salina: Vera, come on.

Salina: And I guarantee you she makes more money off that line than her $5,000 wedding dresses.

Salina: Somewhere someone is going, they're 30,000 idiot.

Salina: And they're probably right.

Salina: So mine is Suzanne calls someone at the health club an Iron Curtain version of Jane Fonda.

Salina: Without going into the full explanation, those are just two very 80s concepts merged together.

Salina: I think this is another example of just a very witty line, but particularly for that time period, did we talk.

Nikki: About Jane Fonda one time in depth?

Nikki: Did you do a Salina sidebar?

Nikki: Or maybe we just talked about her in references.

Salina: I think I plugged her documentary.

Salina: That was so good.

Salina: Like the five stages of John Jane of John of Jane Fonda.

Salina: And then it was like an HBO documentary.

Salina: I think I talked about that before.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: I don't want to do that for old Jane.

Nikki: Jane amazing, and I don't want to duplicate much of that, which is why I'm asking.

Nikki: But what I will say about Jane Fonda, in case we haven't mentioned it before, for anyone who's younger and just doesn't remember, she used to be so ubiquitous with fitness that I think some kids I'm going to call them kids.

Nikki: You don't call them kids.

Nikki: Some kids these days may not know what that means.

Nikki: They may only think of her as the 80 year old person on Grace and Frankie or Frankie and Grace or whatever.

Salina: But they know that show.

Nikki: If they know that show.

Nikki: She released her first fitness video in the early 80s, which I assume is where this reference is coming from, but she subsequently released 23 workout videos totaling sales of 17 million.

Nikki: It was more than any other fitness series combined.

Nikki: She had, like sort of a second life.

Nikki: In the late Aughts 2010 Ish area, she released another series of video targeting videos targeting an older demographic.

Salina: Oh, I don't think I knew that.

Salina: I did know when I watched that documentary.

Salina: And maybe I talked about this here.

Salina: I don't know if I don't remember.

Salina: I like to assume that no one does, but she gave every, I think most or all of the contributions from those videos to causes to help women in the workplace.

Salina: I think it was somehow associated with the stuff with nine to five.

Salina: I'm sorry, some of this I haven't watched that documentary in probably three years.

Nikki: This is a chance to remind people.

Salina: To go watch it.

Salina: It is amazing.

Salina: Like, I have thought about going it's just a time commitment, but I've thought several times about going back to rewatch it again and I think it stayed or is still and I understand that I'm about to caveat this in a big way, but I think the number one selling VHS of all time, that might be right.

Salina: It's an exercise video.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: That's amazing.

Salina: That's how much she was a cornerstone of this very cemented in time piece of history.

Salina: I mean, she is the reason when you see leg warmers as some sort of this is what the 80s looked like.

Salina: That is Jane Fonda.

Salina: It's amazing that she did that.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: And she was already like 40 by.

Nikki: That was just the 80s.

Salina: Yeah, that's all part and parcel to our Jane Fonda podcast where I'll just be summarizing someone else's work.

Salina: Just kind of this podcast.

Salina: Shut up.

Salina: Jazzer Sizing.

Salina: Also related but very of the 80s.

Salina: That made me laugh because Anthony uses the full term jazz aerobicizing.

Salina: I guess jazzer Sizing, the full terminology trademarks hadn't taken off yet.

Salina: One of the two you mentioned the Billy Joel Christy Brinkley combination earlier.

Salina: That's very of the charlene.

Salina: Talks about writing a check.

Salina: Also feels pretty 80s southern things.

Nikki: The only one I had here was calling Kroger.

Nikki: Kroger's?

Nikki: It's a thing we do in the south, too.

Salina: I mean, I don't but it is a thing that oh, yeah.

Nikki: No, not a lot.

Nikki: Like Kroger's.

Nikki: Sonics instead of Sonic.

Nikki: What is another one?

Nikki: I've heard we call it the Walmart.

Nikki: Not Walmart or Walmart's, but lots of those stores.

Nikki: We add the S two for no real reason.

Salina: Yeah, it's a thing.

Salina: It's a thing we have to do.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: Except for us.

Salina: We don't do it.

Salina: Virginia is where Bill's family is from.

Salina: That's a state in the south.

Salina: I don't know references that we need to talk about.

Nikki: Marvin Mitchelson.

Salina: Yeah, I want to do like a deep dive on him.

Salina: I stopped myself, but yeah.

Nikki: So this came up.

Nikki: Julia mentions him when Suzanne was lecturing Mary Joe about letting Ted move in without any sort of quote unquote contract.

Nikki: Good old Marv was a celebrity lawyer who pioneered the concept of palimony.

Nikki: That's where one partner marriage not needed pays the other some form of money after their separation.

Nikki: So this is different from palimony, which is where the husband pays the wife.

Nikki: This is where either partner can pay the other one.

Salina: Oh, you mean alimony.

Salina: Different from alimony.

Nikki: Sorry.

Nikki: Yes, that's what I meant.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: All.

Salina: Right, wait a second.

Nikki: Sorry.

Salina: And then I didn't even think of Alimony, so I was like, did she mean to say Salimoni?

Nikki: I don't know, man, this is different than Alimony.

Nikki: Where now I feel like I need to say the whole thing again.

Nikki: Anyway.

Nikki: His client roster included Robert De Niro, Mickey Rooney, Sylvester Stallone, Jaja Gabor, Joan Collins, Mel Tormet, Bianca Jagger, Carl Sagan and Mrs.

Nikki: William Shatner.

Salina: Doesn't that list of people kind of sound like they would also wind up on a VH One reality show in the early Aughts?

Salina: Like a lot of those.

Nikki: A lot of those.

Salina: Except for Bob.

Salina: Not all bob De niro.

Salina: He's not going to be on that.

Salina: No, but some of these others, I think they were, or their significant others were.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: Fun fact, he made a guest appearance on The Golden Girls playing a lawyer.

Nikki: Oh, we don't talk enough about the crossover between Golden Girls in this show, but we really should.

Salina: We should.

Salina: Oh, that could be something.

Nikki: There's a lot of crossover.

Salina: Mark that down.

Nikki: Got it.

Nikki: The other one I was going to mention was Billy Martin.

Nikki: This is the guy JD.

Nikki: Mentions when he talks about people getting fired in baseball.

Nikki: It's just a thing that happens.

Nikki: Billy Martin was yeah, that went I'm.

Salina: Like I don't think I heard that at all.

Salina: I feel like I am a sports filter.

Nikki: I feel like I am not an insignificant baseball consumer.

Nikki: I'm not a massive baseball fan, but I feel like I know a lot.

Salina: About like you've already used terminology with.

Nikki: Me today in the 2 seconds I've been talking about this.

Salina: No, I mean earlier, talking about your son's practice where you said something about the state of the field or something.

Salina: And whatever it was, I was like, she really knows what she's talking about.

Nikki: Really knows her stuff.

Salina: I'm like, that is fancy baseball stuff.

Nikki: Well, that's the extent of my fancy baseball stuff.

Nikki: Because apparently Billy Martin was a really big deal and it was a reference that if I hadn't googled it, it would have gone over my head.

Nikki: He was a baseball manager for several teams and throughout his career he won 1253 games as a manager.

Nikki: He won a World Series title with the New York Yankees in 1977.

Nikki: Most famously, he had five different tenures with the Yankees and he clashed repeatedly with team owner George Steinbrenner as a player.

Nikki: He won four World Series titles with the Yankees and his number one is retired.

Nikki: Ironically, Billy died in a car accident in December, the year this episode aired.

Salina: Oh, God.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: I skimmed some stories about him and he was complex.

Nikki: He struggled with anger and alcohol dependency issues, but he got fired and rehired a lot, which was JD's point.

Salina: Interesting.

Salina: That sounds like a whole nother deep dive.

Nikki: It could be.

Nikki: And then one other thing that caught my eye while I was watching this is the actor who played Tova.

Nikki: She was super familiar to me, so I looked her up.

Nikki: It's gloria Cromwell.

Nikki: I finally looked it up and found out that she had an appearance on Golden Girls in an episode about a murder mystery.

Nikki: Telling you, the crossover between these shows, they just mine one another's casts quite a lot, I think.

Salina: I just really want to get this down because I think this is a really good episode idea.

Salina: Anything on Cut Lines that we need to talk about?

Nikki: When they were talking about the Krogers, charlene had an anecdote that was cut just before Julia said, incredible story.

Nikki: That was like super.

Nikki: Now that you know this, you would rewatch that and notice there was a really clear cut there.

Nikki: It's too long to go through the entire script piece, but basically it's a parable about the need for additional checkout lanes.

Nikki: And I'm just bringing it up because we always love a random charlene story.

Salina: Right?

Nikki: So next episode, episode 17, the Engagement.

Nikki: We'd love everyone to follow along with us and engage engagement, engage Instagram and Facebook at sweet TNT.

Salina: You really got yourself there, didn't you?

Nikki: Tickled.

Nikki: Our email address is and our website is

Nikki: As always, there are lots of ways you can support the show, the least of which is telling your family and friends about us.

Nikki: Leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to the podcast.

Nikki: Or you can visit our website.

Nikki: We have a Support us page where you can support us.

Nikki: I never know how to do that one.

Nikki: And hang tight for Extra Sugar, where we dig into shacking up romance.

Salina: It's going to be sexy.

Salina: It's not.

Nikki: Who knew?

Salina: All right, well, you know what that means.

Nikki: What does it mean, Salina?

Salina: It means we'll see you around.

Salina: That sexy, bend.

Salina: Bye.

Salina: Welcome to this week's edition of Extra Sugar.

Salina: Today we're exploring the concept of shacking up, which was Suzanne's description of JD temporarily moving in with Mary Joe.

Salina: So what is shacking up, anyway?

Salina: It's to sleep or live together as unmarried sexual partners.

Salina: Apparently the phrase was first introduced in the 1930s, with some crediting.

Salina: It to author Zora Neil Hurston.

Salina: She's great, by the way.

Nikki: Oh, I didn't know that.

Salina: Me neither, Alice.

Salina: I just learned that.

Salina: So there you go.

Salina: I mean, not just now.

Salina: Yeah, just now.

Salina: I have a ghost writer.

Salina: It's where all my money goes.

Salina: So it's certainly not a phrase that we hear as much anymore.

Salina: And I think that probably has a lot to do with the fact that it doesn't carry quite the same amount of stigma as it used to.

Nikki: Yeah, I think that's right.

Salina: So I think now it's just people, they're just living together.

Salina: But for the purposes of today, what we're going to do is touch on three different areas relating to what is basically unmarried cohabitation shacking up.

Salina: Shacking up.

Salina: We're going to talk about cultural acceptance, we're going to talk about legality.

Salina: And then we're going to talk about morality or religious aspects.

Salina: Okay?

Salina: So if you have questions, let me know.

Salina: Please stop me anytime.

Salina: That goes for you or any of you out there.

Salina: Just stop me.

Salina: Just have me on the shoulder.

Salina: I will just answer all of your questions.

Salina: I have no answers.

Salina: So let's start with cultural acceptance.

Salina: According to a 2019 report from Pew that I found the share of adults who have lived with a romantic partner is now higher than the share who have ever been married.

Salina: That's 59% versus 50%.

Nikki: Wow.

Salina: If you look at the trend, they're sort of going in polar opposites of one another.

Salina: So, since 1995, the percentage of Americans getting married is actually declining, whereas more Americans are living together unmarried.

Salina: Now, let me be clear.

Salina: There are still way more people married than living together unmarried.

Salina: But those trends are as I said they were.

Salina: One's going up, the other's going down.

Nikki: I mean, why buy the cow when you have the milk for free?

Nikki: Well, isn't that what our moms told us to think about?

Salina: Not my mom.

Nikki: All right.

Salina: The vast majority of adults say it's acceptable for an unmarried couple to live together 69%, with a narrow majority saying society is better off if the couples eventually tie the knot.

Salina: 53%.

Salina: We have a lot of numbers up at the top, guys.

Salina: I'm sorry, but it's a factor.

Salina: So, about half of us adults say couples who live together before marriage have a better chance of having a successful marriage than those who don't live together before marriage.

Salina: That percentage rises to 63% among those under the age of 30.

Salina: That's not really surprising, right?

Salina: I just think even if you had done this ten years ago, I imagine there will be a difference in those numbers.

Salina: Because the younger you are, the more liberal you usually tend to be.

Salina: The older you are, the more traditional you usually tend to be.

Salina: So, not shocking, the public sees some personal advantages in marriage over cohabitation.

Salina: But mostly they don't see a difference.

Salina: When I'm talking about advantages well, not me.

Salina: When the report is talking about advantages, the things that they mentioned are like financial security, social status, that kind of thing.

Salina: And I'll tell you, my social status has just blasted up since the day I said I do.

Salina: I mean, it was like New York society just blew open the doors and said, come on, Salina, we've been waiting for you.

Salina: But that didn't happen, so whatever.

Salina: So most Americans 65%.

Salina: Favor allowing unmarried couples to have the same legal rights as married couples, talking about things like health insurance, inheritance, or tax benefits.

Salina: So not unimportant things.

Salina: However, the report also found that married adults are actually more satisfied with their relationships and they are more trusting of partners.

Salina: Questions before I move on to legality?

Nikki: Not yet.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: This could get dicey.

Salina: I'll have questions for you.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: There are two states with enforceable laws on their books against unmarried cohabitations.

Salina: This is down from seven in 2001, and actually as of 2016.

Salina: And prior to that, florida had a law making it second making this a second degree misdemeanor.

Salina: It came off the books in 2016.

Salina: Do you have any guesses on who the Holder outers are?

Nikki: Texas, Tennessee, the T's?

Salina: I will tell you this.

Salina: They both start with M's dog on it.

Salina: Oh, no, you let me just tell you.

Nikki: Maryland.

Salina: Maryland.

Salina: Now that's a guess.

Nikki: Michigan.

Nikki: Just tell me.

Salina: That's right.

Nikki: I knew you know.

Nikki: Mississippi.

Salina: There you go.

Salina: So while not frequent, these kinds of laws have been used against people.

Salina: So I just feel like that should be a part of this conversation.

Salina: So I found this La Times article.

Salina: And so this has been used by spouses to gain leverage in divorce or custody disputes.

Salina: I found also an example from ACLU.

Salina: There was a divorced Michigan man and his overnight visitation with children with his children was restricted by the Court of Appeals because the law prohibited his girlfriend from sleeping at their shared home on the nights the kids would be there.

Salina: And I mean, this is like present day, so I don't remember the exact year.

Salina: But it's not like this was in the 50s again, it was their home.

Salina: And when Virginia still had these laws on the books, a state inspector threatened not to renew someone's home daycare license after categorizing her live in partner of 17 years as her companion rather than a border.

Salina: And now we're just talking about a difference of terms.

Salina: So if you're not married and living together, it's also super important to know that your legal rights are not the same as people who are married.

Salina: This is not a judgment.

Salina: Casey and I had a blissful four years together under this roof, as someone's grandma would say, living in sin.

Salina: And further, I do not think it's fair for people to have more legal rights just because they're married.

Salina: According this is where my opinions are coming in, according to law info, because you don't have the same legal protections.

Salina: It's in each person's best interest to write out a property agreement that spells out who owns what and how the property will be distributed should the couple separate.

Salina: This is especially important if you're acquiring real estate together.

Salina: I don't know whose life this is, but someone's or how about the importance of ensuring property rights for a surviving partner with a will or living trust?

Salina: Not every state recognizes domestic partnership, so the paperwork is important.

Salina: Definitely not trying to bring it down, but these are things that we have to think about.

Salina: We'll link to this article so that you have more details.

Salina: Some people may think that they're covered by common law marriage after they've lived together a certain number of years.

Salina: This is a myth.

Salina: Common law marriage is a legally recognized marriage between two people who have not purchased a marriage license or had their marriage psalmized by a ceremony.

Salina: I feel like I just said that word wrong.

Nikki: Whatever.

Salina: All right.

Salina: It's only currently recognized in eight states.

Salina: Georgia was a state that recognized common law marriage.

Salina: It is no longer the case.

Salina: What I can tell you is that if you fell under common law years ago, before it wasn't on the books anymore, you were grandfathered in.

Salina: Otherwise, it doesn't mean diddily squat.

Salina: So I can't speak to the other states, but I did look into Georgia.

Salina: We can lead to some further details on it.

Salina: But the moral of the story is this don't assume something, know something.

Salina: And I feel like common law is a myth I've heard my entire life.

Nikki: For sure.

Salina: Okay, speaking of morals, we're on to our third category.

Salina: Certainly not universal, but I think it's fair to say that a lot of opinions about unmarried couples living together are tied to a particular set of morals and religious beliefs.

Salina: This is not to say that a non religious person can't be moral.

Salina: That's certainly not the case.

Salina: But there's a pretty strong association between the two.

Salina: It basically boils down to this if you're religious, shacking up probably matters more to you.

Salina: If you're not religious, it probably doesn't matter to you much at all.

Salina: In fact, let's go back to that Pew report.

Salina: You can see the acceptance of cohabitation pretty drastically shift from looking at these data broken down by certain religious affiliations.

Salina: So, for example, only a third of white evangelical Protestants said it was acceptable for an unmarried couple to live together, even if they don't plan to get married.

Salina: Whereas among those not religiously affiliated, nine in ten found living together acceptable.

Salina: That's quite a difference.

Salina: People are entitled to their beliefs.

Salina: I support people doing whatever is right for them.

Salina: But I couldn't help but think about some things, several things.

Salina: As I looked into this segment over the US's.

Salina: History, living together outside of marriage hasn't always been a clear cut choice.

Salina: It's been illegal and not due to any clear safety issues that I can see, which is what many laws actually hinge on, but rather maybe some moral policing at play.

Salina: And that's great, so long as they're your morals.

Salina: Marriage is protected by the law.

Salina: Cohabitation, not so much.

Salina: Not without some additional research and steps.

Salina: Marriage and having children are incentivized with tax breaks, family plans, family discounts, even.

Salina: Getting married is celebrated with multiple parties and basically cash in prizes along the way.

Salina: I know I've been the beneficiary of one.

Salina: We don't do that for people who choose not to marry.

Salina: Society as a whole does not celebrate nor support the transgression of social norms.

Salina: Though, as the numbers show, those social norms are slowly changing.

Salina: I wonder, though, how long will it take for the law to catch up?

Salina: I don't say any of this to discount the hard work it is to be married and or raise a family.

Salina: It is hard work, and families are a beautiful, priceless thing.

Salina: They deserve support, but so does everyone else.

Salina: And that's this week's.

Salina: Extra sugar.


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