Shall we call the First Wives Club to order one more time? (That’s a rhetorical question - yes, yes we shall.) As is our way, we had MORE. TO. SAY. So, we held back some conversation about casting and controversies to cover in this special part two.
We’ll talk about cast members who have gone on to become bonafide Hollywood icons since this movie, potential casting what-ifs, and even a few First Wives Controversies.
Come on, let’s get into it!
Or listen on Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts.
Transcript
Hello.
I, like, don't know how to start.
Hello.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to this week's edition of extra sugar and or part two of our first wives club episode.
That's what happens when it's off the cuff.
We don't know whichever way you want to take it.
The first wives club episode we had earlier this week was just so jam packed of facts, fun lines.
I don't know.
Figures.
I don't know where I'm going.
It was full of a lot.
Some figures.
There's some figures.
Yeah, there are much.
The movie made.
Exactly.
Thank you, Salina.
Yeah.
There was just a lot of information.
So one thing we didn't have a chance to do is dig into the cast a little bit more.
We sort of alluded to the fact that it was an ensemble cast.
We talked a lot about the leading ladies, but there was more to say about the cast.
So we wanted to do sort of a separate, a second piece of that episode that we're calling casting and controversies.
I feel like you need a sound.
You'd say, like, yes.
So we'll dig into the actors a little bit.
We'll talk about some big names now that maybe weren't so big, then do a little bit of our casting what ifs sort of scenario.
Talk about a few of the cameos, and then we can talk about controversy.
Salina's got controversy out the wazoo.
Yeah, I love talking about my wazoo.
I didn't say your wazoo.
Okay.
The royal wazoo.
The general we.
The general we.
Exactly.
So do you want to talk about big names that weren't so big then?
First?
I do this is me off the cuff.
Off the cuff.
She's.
So just fixing notes, doing the thing.
I can't even remember the word.
I'm trying to think of spontaneous.
I'm the most spontaneous.
I wasn't prepared for the spontaneity.
Prepared.
I needed to think about it.
I needed some time to sit with my spontaneity.
So, yeah, it's reasonable to think that what are we, 27 years past?
When the movie I'm not good with math.
No, we're way past that.
Let's see.
No, I think you're right.
I think you're right.
Maybe 26 years something here.
You do math and I'll do this.
But that much longer.
When we're coming up on like 30 years since a thing has happened.
Some of the people who were unknown 27 years are going to be more known now.
Right?
Maybe one person who definitely went from being like, I recognize her, to more of, like, icon status is Sarah Jessica Parker.
You know, it's fascinating you say that I didn't put her in this list because she was in the cask, not footloose.
Oh, dog on it.
What was she in?
Well, definitely hocus pocus.
That was going to be a second honeymoon in Vegas.
Carry on.
But I didn't put her in my list because I kind of wondered if we didn't recognize her because oh, did.
You just say not Footloose.
What did you say?
Was it Footloose?
Yeah, it's footloose.
That's a pretty big movie.
Yeah, but she was like, she had been in movies and she had been acting since she was like eleven years old.
But it was more like, I know.
Working actor versus to.
Like, this is Carrie Bradshaw, Sex in the City.
Now that would just happen two years later.
I always think of her as one of the Sanderson sisters.
Yeah, I get that, I get that.
And you'll get to see her again as a Sanderson sister because we're going to milk that cow.
Now.
This was also Tim Oliphant's first feature film.
Do you know what's so funny about Timothy Oliphant?
I have no idea who this man is.
He popped up in Santa Clarita diet.
Kyle, like, lost his mind.
I think that's Timothy Oliphant.
I'm pretty sure that's Timothy Olafon.
Let me just big justified guy.
Timothy Olivon.
I don't know.
Still to this day, I should have asked him.
I don't know, but I just remember he sort of lost his mind.
He was like, he's a really good actor.
He's really good.
If I had not seen him in Santa Clarita Diet and I'm sorry I said that's so weird, he still would not have registered for me in this watch of this movie.
Oh, really?
Okay, well, there you go.
Well, he is probably, I mean, kind of intaking with a you know, he has done a lot and he's been in a lot of different things, but I think he is definitely like a one on one with Justified.
He also did Santa Clarita Diet, a part of a season.
I love Santa Clarita diet.
I hated it when that show yeah, I thought it was really funny.
So anyways, that was his first feature film.
Also, if you don't know what part he played, he was the Hutt new.
Director in town with an earring.
So, you know he's cool.
That's right.
That's how you know, for people our age, it's impossible to see Elizabeth Berkeley and not have Saved by the Bell flashbacks.
Reportedly, Berkeley was cast because Han thought she deserved redemption from showgirls.
Oh, okay.
That explains a lot.
Yeah.
Which had premiered the year before.
Now, Nikki, are you a showgirls girl?
No.
You know what's funny is I put her on my list because I wasn't quite sure where you were going to want to go with this.
So I just listed the actors that played minor parts in this but have continued to work.
And Elizabeth Berkeley was a challenging one for me because of our age.
We all recognize her as saved by the Bell and Jesse Spano.
And I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so scared.
You look blankly at me.
It's my favorite.
Yeah.
But iconic scene it would have been.
Just before this that showgirls happened, which I think ruined her career to a point where she was really struggling to work.
So it's very interesting that Han was looking out for her in that way.
Han Goldie?
Yeah, goldstein, whatever intimate name you prefer to go.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So I read that somewhere and I thought that was really special for someone to reach out like that.
But also I was actually recently listening to a podcast in maybe it was like about the 90s or something, and they have started about ten or so years ago looking at showgirls with a much more redemptive quality that it didn't quite get at the time.
Now, I understand you're not a showgirls girl, but did you see Showgirls?
Okay.
I've actually seen it several times.
From what I understand, it's not all everybody made it to be.
It reminds me more of like, a TV movie.
I think that's, like, there's some things in the quality that just don't feel there.
But in some ways, the examples I was hearing of why it should be held to not held to a higher standard, but why it should be seen as a little bit more than it was.
I forget who all was involved behind the scenes, but it was really supposed to hearken back to the MGM musicals in a naughty 90s kind of way, and I think that just fell flat.
I also feel like one thing I heard about the way I think it's worth seeing, and I think one thing I heard about her particular role is like, maybe she was just given some bad direction on what to do.
It was like they wanted to play her angry and it was like just dialed up too high or something.
But anyways, yeah, I think that movie comes out now.
It would never get the kind of flak it got then.
Yeah, I think it was a really big heel turn, too, from Jesse's Fano.
And I really, really just feel like the public is almost never ready to have that sort of like, it's Miley Cyrus all over again.
We're just never fully ready for that heel.
Some there are other if, and we have a really long memory in the way that we say people have really short memories.
There is a not insignificant number of people who will still identify Miley Cyrus with Hannah Montana forever and always, and have trouble letting go of that.
Even though she is a if not nearly 30, at least 30 year old woman, she's a past 30, full grown individual, and she's well entitled to play these roles and people just can't let go of it.
Right.
And I think that's what happened to Elizabeth Berkeley.
Right.
And we do that to women.
We like to do that to them.
We like to them.
Yeah.
I don't see us doing that as much to men.
So, Elisa's husband's, this is not going to be for you, but someone will care about this.
Okay?
Okay.
Elise's husband's attorney is played by J.
Smith Cameron, who just ended a stint as Jerry, who was one of the very main characters on the HBO show succession.
Oh, okay.
I also saw a couple of other I'm just going to say it now that we're spending a little bit more.
Time, a lot of hand motions going on right now.
There's a couple of other people I saw.
I saw someone from Frasier.
He was the bartender when Goldie Hans losing her mind.
And he played like I think maybe he had a cooking show or something on the radio station where Fraser Crane had his show.
And then it seems gil, I think, and then you're welcome.
His wife's name was Tammy.
His wife's name was not Tammy.
And then also the person who hits on Goldie Hahn when they go into the gay bar.
So that is a character from Orange Is the New Black who went through, I think, all seven seasons of the show named Boo.
And her name was Boo in Orange Is the New Black.
And it was definitely interesting to see her because she's about 20 years younger.
So it's just funny to see those people cycle through different shows.
It's a small universe.
Hollywood.
Yeah.
Let's talk about some casting.
What ifs so did you find any.
Of these I'm sure you're going to talk about Sally Field.
Well, you take that one if you want to.
Oh, okay.
Apparently Sally Field says that Goldie Hahn tried to talk her into taking a role in the movie, but she turned it down because she thought Bet I actually read the quotes.
She thought Bette Midler and Goldie Hahn were, quote, too musical for her to stand up with that, which I think is really funny because I don't think of this as a musical movie with the exception of that final scene.
Is it one final scene?
It's funny because they ended up making it into a musical.
So maybe I just missed something altogether.
But I don't think of it as a musical movie.
But I also don't see Sally Field in this movie.
Yeah, that's interesting, because I don't even know that I read like I wasn't sure what character it was.
Obviously she wasn't going to play the Goldie Hawn.
I think she would have played the Diane Keaton character.
I was going to ask you what you thought there, but then I don't know if we read something different.
If you did read that it was specifically Annie.
Well, no, sorry that it was specifically Bette.
And I'm sorry that's why I said I actually read her quotes because there was a lot of like, Sally Field says they tried to talk her into First Wives Club.
Sally Field.
Passed up first wives club.
But I actually read the interview with her and I think she specifically said Bette and Goldie tried to talk her into it because I read that thinking, well, that's unfortunate for Keaton.
Like they were desperately trying to get someone else.
Yeah.
Well, what do you think?
Do you think it's better, worse or the same with her?
With her in it?
Diane Keaton.
I want to say this with as much respect as possible.
Diane Keaton's an interesting one for me.
Okay.
You made a joke a few episodes ago?
Because the way I said something you're like.
Well, screw you, Diane Keaton.
And I didn't mean it that way at all.
But I have reflected on that a lot and thought, like but was there some element of that?
Because I don't know that I would ever list Diane Keaton as a favorite actor of would.
I would say Sally Field is a favorite.
You never know what's going to stick with someone.
You really got to watch your mouth, Salina.
I think that often when we come back to this table, I was like, I probably should have shut up.
But, yeah, I struggle with Diane Keaton a little bit.
I feel like sometimes she feels to me a little one note sometimes.
Oh, hot takes on sweet.
Oh, I know.
But I don't know what that means, because I also think I said in the main episode, like her freak out in Morty's apartment is something only Diane Keaton could do.
And I don't know how to disentangle that from, like, a one trick pony sort of thing.
I don't necessarily know that.
I think that's what I mean.
But also, I feel like I've seen that role before.
I feel like I've seen her have a freak out like that before because it's something only she can do.
Steve Martin.
There are certain things only Steve Martin can do.
Nobody else would do it as I don't I don't know.
I feel like she started playing more of this particular role after this role.
So I'm thinking about the what's it called?
Because I said so.
Or moore.
Yeah, I think that's what I'm thinking of.
It felt like a very similar role to me, but it just sort of depends on what era you're talking about.
Because in the family stone, she plays a very different role.
In Baby Boom, it feels very different, even though it's been a long time since I've seen that movie, so I probably shouldn't speak with any authority to it.
For me, I think it would just be different.
I totally think Sally Phil could do that role.
But I did love Diane Keaton so much in that role.
Diane Keaton is also amazing in Marvin's room.
Like that movie is Marvin's Room.
It's just beautiful.
So she was also in Father of the Bride in a slightly different but similar role.
So I think probably it might be a little bit of a typecast situation.
Like, as she got older, they started putting her in the same similar bucket, which is, like, mom vibe.
And then maybe, like, a little amped up mom vibe.
I don't just it's almost like there's.
Only three types of women in Hollywood.
Yeah, it's true.
Babe District Attorney and Miss Daisy.
You got it.
But yeah, I hear you.
I think it probably would have been a different although Sally Field is very capable of playing a hyperactive, extra emotional person.
Well, I think about Mrs.
Doubtfire.
Yes.
And it would have been right in that era, too.
Yeah, close enough.
Anyway.
So apparently, I think most of the like, this was newer news.
It's so funny that this kind of.
Got about Sally Field.
Yeah.
Because I think it was during the 80 for Brady publicity tour.
It's so funny that it's just came out now.
So a couple of the other casting what ifs that I had was the role that eventually goes to Elizabeth Berkeley was actually Jenny McCarthy's.
Oh.
And she turned it down.
Same question.
Better, worse, same, different.
Oh, different.
Yeah.
Jenny McCarthy's just different.
It doesn't feel as innocent.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's actually so I stop and say, this is not something I put in my likes, but I wasn't thinking about it the first time that we went through or that I went through and rewatched it, which was I've always really loved how much she loved Elise and she idolized her there in the crowd, cheering for her.
I teared up this morning watching that.
It's really nice.
Yeah.
So the last one I have is Jessica Lang was seriously considered for the role of Elise Elliott.
Oh.
Better, worse, same, different.
Well, hold on 1 second.
Huh?
I don't know that I have opinion on that.
I mean, I think she could have done it, but goli, ha, man.
I'm not trying to replace her.
That's what I'm thinking.
I'm looking back to kind.
It'S.
Speaking of people being pigeonholed when it comes to Jessica Lang, now all I can think of is American Horror Story.
I can't get that Jessica Lang out of my head.
And she plays such, like, a intense she does a great job in that show, but it's just like an intense, crazy character.
And I can't break that enough to put her in, like, an Elise character.
Yeah.
I think Goldie Hahn was I can't imagine anyone else playing that.
I think I think Jessica Langs would have been meaner.
I was trying to look back and see what she had done around this time, what she was starring in, and I don't know.
Goldie Hahn, she's just irreplaceable in that role.
She played it really well.
This was in your favorite quotes, but where she talks about science fiction young between that and then death becomes her.
Right.
In that same time period.
This was just a perfect role for her.
Yeah.
Just the character, the person she was playing.
Right.
And her as a redhead.
Okay, so the movie is also just chock full of cameos.
Did you have any that stood out for you?
I wrote down the one about the author of the book.
We already talked about that one in the main episode.
And then Ivana Trump was a really obvious one as well.
Yes.
And she delivers the movie's tagline.
Don't get mad, get everything.
Her taking that was the director's idea.
Hugh Wilson.
Her taking that.
Okay.
Yeah.
So because did I took this out of the trivia, but since we're talking about her, brenda delivers the line.
Did you have just a little nip and tuck or did you have the full enchilada?
It was originally did you have the full oh, and they changed it because they didn't want to make her upset offend her.
That makes sense.
So stalker Channing, I actually had her in there initially as supporting cast.
And I don't know if it's just because the performance was so strong or whatever the case might be, but everywhere I look they kept referring to it as a cameo.
So I put her as a cameo here.
And then we talked about the new wife being played by Heather Locklear.
I don't even like that terminology.
That just sounds terrible.
The new wife.
The new wife.
Hers is like the definition of a cameo because she didn't even have any lines.
Yeah, she was literally just a face.
Right.
If it had been TV, does she even get her SAG?
Well, I mean, it's not like SAG doesn't exist in movies.
I wonder if the rules are the same.
Like usually you have to talk.
You can't just appear or I thought that was the rule.
What do I know?
I'm not in Hollywood.
Gloria Steinem shows up to talk to Duardo at the crisis center opening.
She's literally there 2 seconds.
That definitely was something that went over my head when I was eleven.
Another person who there's no lines, you just see him talking her ear off.
And then Kathy Lee Gifford.
As Kathy Lee Gifford.
Oh, right.
Yeah.
They actually just as another movie trivia, they had a line in there that would have insinuated whether or not someone had ever cheated on her.
And they took that out because not long after that I don't know if it's because, but not long after that it came out that her husband had cheated on her with the nanny or something.
Frank it was like a huge thing at that time.
Late 90s maybe.
I knew this at one point in time.
You probably did.
It's all new information or Kathy Lee 27 years later.
And then the last one I have is former New York City mayor Ed Cox.
And let me tell you something, there's someone I can't tell you where he showed up.
Probably with the crisis center.
I don't know.
I'm going to have to make a note to myself to look at him later because I feel like I was just looking him up recently and now I cannot remember why wasn't for this.
You sure?
I don't think so.
If it wasn't if you happen to remember why you are looking him up, I sure need to know that I know, I'm sorry.
I shouldn't have said anything.
So I was going to move on to controversies, if that's all right with you.
Sure.
Okay.
So there are some of note.
One from during the movie and two that have happened since.
I'm sorry, we mentioned one last time, which was Stephen Collins, which we're not going to get into, but the one from during the movie.
I'm calling Bet on the set.
So this bums me out, but it's been reported multiple times, including by Bronson Pinchot.
Again, he plays Duardo that she really mistreated the director.
Here's a quote from Pinchot.
Quote, she was being such a b**** to him while he was directing.
She would be rolling her eyes pantomiming with her favorite actors, and she made it very difficult, and he was at his wits end.
He was actually a very nice man, but she was very unkind to him on that movie.
So I can't help but wonder if some of this is because she's a woman.
I'm just saying, if she demonstrated this behavior as a man, would it have read differently?
Now, I have read a lot of the kind of reflection pieces, like at the 20 year and the 25th year included quotes from the director.
And he does mention being afraid of her, but that's about as far as he went, which could be because he's a very nice man.
I'm not sure, but I also did a quick Google search just to see has there been other points in time where she's come up as, like, troublesome on the set?
I never found anything.
It seems to me she gets in trouble more on Twitter than she does on movies.
Yeah, she seems like my take on Bette Midler, knowing nothing about her except public perception.
Is she's just a big personality, outspoken?
Yeah.
Like she's going to speak up for herself.
It doesn't surprise me that she would be a little hard to handle as a director.
But probably also, like you said, he's a really nice guy.
And she probably needs someone who's maybe not such a nice guy or gal or person to direct her.
Right.
Because she probably at that point in time, I mean, they all are pretty experienced at that point.
So there becomes this point where I think you become a little harder to direct.
Yeah, I've been doing this a long time.
I know how this goes.
Right?
Yeah.
So I just thought that was I didn't want to ignore it, but I don't always question these things.
But I question this one a little.
I don't know how Bronson Pincho pronounces his name, just to be clear.
But what does he have to gain from double check?
That one is pincho.
It's Pincho.
What does he have to gain from coming out now and saying that?
Didn't you say that was recent?
No, I don't know that was recent.
Okay.
Why would he say that?
That was his perception.
But it was why I said too, because I also don't want to poo poo on what he feels like he saw on the set.
And that's why I'm wondering if some of this is through the lens of like, women with big personalities aren't as acceptable as men with big personalities.
I don't know.
That's the case.
And what's her sense of humor?
That's the other thing.
I've seen her in different movies, and certainly she brings different things to different characters, but there is always sort of like a boldness and I just couldn't imagine between that and the snippets that we do get on social media, that she's just not a bold kind of comedian like Bodacious.
I think she's always put herself out there kind of gal.
So I don't know.
But thought I'd have to share that.
And then there's another one, but this one and I alluded to this in the first episode, this is way past the movie.
And this was with Scott Rudin, the producer.
So, as we've discussed, there was something I wanted to circle back to.
But before we do that, I want to talk about just a little bit about his credentials.
Not only is he an EGOT again, that's an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony winner.
There are 18 ever.
His movies have earned 151 Oscar nominations and 23 wins.
Good grief.
I mean, it's amazing.
He's also received 17 Tonys for his stage productions, including a 2018 record breaking run of to kill a Mockingbird on Broadway.
I believe that's the one that Aaron Sorkin worked on, but in recent years, he's come under fire for his abusive behavior towards staff and others.
I think there are a few things happening here at the same time.
One, it sounds like perhaps that behavior has gotten worse over the years.
So we'll link to an article so that you can read it and read about those incidents for yourself and decide.
But two, as the article points out, his bad behavior has been documented for like 40 years and in the press.
So sometimes even it was almost celebrated in a way, which is really interesting in contrast to the Bet story, right?
It's almost like he came up in a system that didn't care, but it was shaken up by the me too movement where we started in one place and then started to look out for all these other toxic behaviors.
I'm not saying that makes that behavior okay.
I'm just saying I think that is some context for whatever you'll read in some of these stories.
I think one of them was like maybe breaking an iPad on someone's hand or something.
Oh, God.
Like physical stuff.
Oh, that's different.
That's why I said too.
I think that was a more recent incident, and so it seems like it's been ratcheting up over the years.
Again, that was my read on the I think it was like a Hollywood reporter.
That's a tough, right?
Like I am one of those people that tends to give older people a little bit more grace on things, because I do feel like society in the world changes and I think sometimes people of certain generations get left behind at certain points in time.
So there's a discussion about inclusivity and cultural inclusion that's happening largely online and there's a big portion of the population that's a little bit older that isn't in those circles and hearing those conversations.
And so it's hard to hold them accountable.
But I know that there's a flip of it that everybody should be learning and improving themselves and trying to stay current and whatever.
That's a tough one.
Physical behavior, though, physical harm, assault, that's different.
That one's when I'd have a tough time giving someone a pass on.
Yeah, and I mean, it's like one of those things, too.
Like I'm not in the room.
Did he knock it down next to him and then maybe a piece splintered up and hit the guy in the hand?
I don't know, but you probably shouldn't be doing that either.
Physical stuff, that's an extra level.
Yeah.
Although I will say if you're really verbally abusing someone, that's very bad.
Debilitating.
If no one's ever checking them, then there's no system built to check.
It went unchecked for so long and.
It really sucks to hold that person accountable now for a system that enabled them.
And he was a man.
Well, he's still a man, and he is the successful man who brought a lot of money into the system.
So life's hard, y'all.
That's what we're trying to say.
Try to keep your nose clean.
Yeah.
Maybe we should have started with controversies.
Maybe.
Let me tell you about that Timothy Oliphant.
But get back to us.
Why is Kyle such a big fan?
I'm going to have to look into that.
All I can remember is his reaction and he was just like, I love that guy.
Maybe he loved go, I don't know.
What that one is.
It's a 1999 movie with him and Katie Holmes.
I can't remember who else is in it, but it was all around like, I feel like, want to say the late 90s rave party scene and Timothy Oliphant's like a drug dealer in it.
He was in gone in 60 seconds.
I do remember him in that.
Yeah.
There had to have been something that just really stuck with him.
That's your homework.
He really went crazy over that.
He was very good in Santa Clarita diet.
Sorry.
Television show.
I mean, I loved it.
Again, award winning here with the two of us.
That's right.
Is that it?
That's it.
Okay.
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So that's it.
Thanks for joining this week's extra sugar and or part two of our very special season four special episode and come.
Back for rerelease September.
Do that and then we will see you officially for season five of Design Women in October.
Thanks, Salina.
Bye.