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Episode 21: Saliva Balls and Baseball Groupies

Updated: Aug 14, 2023

This week, Designing Women fiiiiiiinally introduces us to the source of one of Suzanne’s monthly alimony checks, a pitcher for the Atlanta Braves (who, coincidentally, is played by an actor we remember well from our Gilmore Girls watching)! And he’s got a little {steamy} light reading for his ex-wife.

Before we jump in, Nikki closes the loop on an unknown reference from episode 20. And after the show, we’ll take you out to the ball game in “Extra Sugar”, where we learn a bit more about Atlanta’s hometown baseball heroes, the Braves. (You bring the Cracker Jack!)

If you want to learn even more, here are some of the things we said we’d share during the show:

Come on, let’s get into it!



Nikki: Hey Selena.

Salina: Hey, everyone.

Nikki: I didn't note to myself to come back and say, hey, everyone.

Salina: Oh, well, hey making.

Nikki: So I'm starting this episode because I have an update from episode 20.

Nikki: I never have updates.

Salina: I'm very excited.

Nikki: I'm not as good as coming back and circling back on the things, but I really felt like people might have been screaming in their cars last time.

Nikki: When in my unknown references or whatever it is we call it at the end of the show, I said I tried to look up, like, the costumed fleas at Notsbury Farm.

Nikki: That was something that Charlene referenced when the ladies were talking about rich people's penchant for paying people to decorate their doll houses.

Nikki: She went into, like, these fleas that are dressed like a husband and wife.

Nikki: I was like, I have no idea.

Nikki: I don't know.

Nikki: My notes just said I tried looking into it.

Nikki: I couldn't find it.

Nikki: I asked you if you saw it.

Nikki: You said you didn't see it.

Nikki: So I'm embarrassed because I got to thinking about it again after we finished recording, and I was like, I really don't believe this was made up for the show.

Nikki: This had to have been a real thing.

Nikki: So I decided to try just one more time.

Nikki: I clicked around twice maybe, and I found it.

Nikki: Oh, it was a real thing.

Nikki: Motts Miniatures Museum was a fixture at Knottsbury Farm for 34 years, and it included exactly what Charlie and said.

Nikki: Fleas dress like a bride and groom.

Salina: Oh, okay.

Nikki: You probably have a lot of questions.

Nikki: I still have a lot of questions.

Salina: I mean, I want to do it.

Nikki: Again so I can show you the picture, but most interestingly, that's, like, one of their least can, and I'm going to put it in the show notes, too.

Nikki: That's actually one of their least marketed offerings.

Nikki: They also had works of art painted on pin heads, like, not hair pins, but, like, push pins almost, or like, those pins used to pin clothes together.

Nikki: I'm not describing it well, but they're, like, painted on the head of it.

Nikki: It's a very small little painting.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Wow, they're tiny.

Salina: It's a constitution on a piece of rice.

Nikki: There you go.

Nikki: Same concept.

Nikki: And they have a miniature modern home with a working TV.

Nikki: And I'm not saying, like, doll house size home, like, much smaller.

Nikki: So the Miniatures Museum lost its lease at Knottsbury Farm in 1992 what?

Nikki: And, like, taking up too much space.

Salina: Get out of here.

Nikki: This is not water under the bridge.

Nikki: They still have a Facebook page.

Nikki: And there was a caption in, like, one of the pictures that said this was after we were kicked out of Knottsbury Farm.

Nikki: It's written very aggressively.

Salina: Oh, this is crazy.

Nikki: Okay, so maybe there was some drama there.

Nikki: Anyway, they reopened.

Nikki: They were kicked out in 90.

Nikki: What I say?

Nikki: 92.

Nikki: Reopened in 96 in Buena Vista, California, and closed again in 98.

Nikki: Due to low attendance.

Nikki: So, again, like, more aggression from the owners on this one.

Nikki: There were a couple of news articles that were one in particular that I found an La times article where they interviewed the owner who was like a third generation Motts family member.

Nikki: He was like, I don't understand.

Nikki: People have to pay to get into the museum.

Nikki: And they used to get in for free when they were part of Notsbury Farm.

Nikki: It was just included as part of your ticket price.

Nikki: Now the ticket price was, like, $4, I think.

Nikki: And people are balking at that admission price because they were like, I always used to get him free, and he's like, how could you expect anything this glorious to be free?

Nikki: And we have to charge a cover.

Nikki: So, again, like, low key aggression.

Salina: But how are they viewing it under, like, a magnifying glass?

Nikki: That's a good question.

Nikki: I don't think it's that tiny.

Nikki: So let me tell you.

Nikki: I'll put the pictures in our show notes, and I'll also send them to you just so you can peruse in your own time.

Nikki: The fleas are, like, in a peanut shell.

Nikki: So it's a peanut shell that's like a I think it's beds.

Salina: No, it'd be huge.

Nikki: Yeah, that would be huge.

Nikki: There's a little model of, I think, a Mexican chapel.

Nikki: And then the fleas are dressed up like a bride and a groom.

Nikki: You actually have to go.

Nikki: So I found all of the items were sold at auction after they closed the second opening of the museum.

Nikki: They were all sold at auction, but fortunately, someone took a ton of pictures of things.

Nikki: But I actually had to go somewhere else to find a picture of the fleas.

Nikki: So there'll be two separate links.

Salina: I can't make this stuff up.

Salina: Our Google histories are wild, terrifying.

Nikki: It's really scary.

Nikki: So I'm going to also link those two La times la.

Nikki: Times article on the Reopening and then La times article on the Re closing.

Nikki: So I will link both of those, but so it was a real thing.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I wonder if my dad remembers dad Brighta text me.

Salina: Yeah, just text me.

Salina: Just everybody text me.

Salina: You can reach me at five.

Salina: Five.

Nikki: So I wanted to circle back on that because I thought, that is such an obscure thing to make up if it weren't real.

Salina: Yeah, there's no way.

Nikki: It just really bothered me, so I had to circle back on that.

Nikki: Is there anything else that you want to say about that or ask about that?

Salina: Not till I see it.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: We may have to come back.

Nikki: We might come back to this in episode 22.

Salina: Yeah, that's really interesting.

Salina: Well, thank you for your diligence.

Nikki: You're welcome.

Salina: And maybe between now and whenever we talk about it again, I'll ask my dad what he knows about these fleas.

Salina: I just want to say one last thing.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: Anything that's tiny has my interest.

Nikki: Really?

Salina: I don't know if it's because I'm small.

Nikki: Oh, yeah.

Salina: Doesn't make any sense.

Nikki: See, maybe you wouldn't need like a magnifying glass to see it.

Salina: Is it gerbils or it's some sort of mouse or know, they make like, the tiny burritos for them and they set like videos of the little burritos that they roll up for them.

Nikki: No clue what you're talking about.

Salina: Okay, well, we got some learning to.

Nikki: Do over on this side.

Nikki: I'm going to show Selena some pictures.

Nikki: She's going to show me some YouTube videos.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Nikki and I are about to go on summer vacation.

Salina: Summer vacation for us is well, for Nikki, it's raising children and working a full time job.

Salina: And for me it's working a full time job and like cleaning the, you know but we're going to go on summer vacation after this.

Nikki: We're gonna take a break when we finish these next two episodes.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: So we're going to catch up on the fleas.

Salina: I'm going to show you the tiny mice with the burritos that I cannot believe that you haven't seen.

Salina: And basically what we're trying to say is anything that's tiny is cute except the fleece.

Nikki: I'm not going with cute, but let's.

Salina: Talk about things that are big.

Salina: Grand.

Nikki: Grand.

Nikki: That's a nice transition.

Nikki: That is a good one.

Salina: I'm learning from the master across the table from Know.

Nikki: This one is grand.

Nikki: Yeah, this one is grand.

Nikki: Slam.

Nikki: Thank you, ma'am.

Salina: Makes me want pancakes.

Nikki: Oh, IHOP grand slam.

Salina: Yeah, there could be a double entendre in there, but really?

Salina: Yeah, I just want pancakes.

Nikki: You've only gotten the pancakes.

Nikki: I get that.

Nikki: So the Hulu Episode description When Suzanne's ex husband, pro baseball player Jack Dent, writes his autobiography detailing his off the field activities, she decides to get even and play a little hardball herself.

Nikki: Air date may 4, 1987 jack Dent.

Salina: Sounds like a spy novel, maybe or something.

Salina: I don't know if it's like I'm thinking Jack Bauer.

Nikki: That's what I 24 came to mind for me.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Or maybe like a bad guy.

Nikki: He kind of also sounds like he could be a villain.

Salina: Maybe he is.

Nikki: Maybe I'm thinking Harvey Dent from Batman.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Could be anything.

Nikki: It's none of those things actually starts out good.

Salina: Harvey Dent.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Do you want to talk about Batman real quick?

Salina: God, yes.

Salina: But our podcast is about designing Women catch us in the off season where Nikki and I pose as cape crusaders and save people around Atlanta.

Nikki: We also don't do any of that.

Salina: No.

Nikki: So this one was written by LBT and directed by Barnett Kelman, who directed the two parter old spouses never die as well as Monet.

Nikki: So you ready to jump in?

Salina: Let's get into this sucker.

Nikki: So in the first act of the show big picture, suzanne learns that her ex husband Jack is going to publish a book.

Nikki: And then Les quickly learns about the juicy stuff that's in there.

Nikki: So we start, in my opinion, with a pretty inconsequential cold open.

Nikki: To me, it really didn't seem to have any relevance to the rest of the episode.

Salina: No.

Salina: Which is what cold opens are supposed to, I guess.

Nikki: But I love a good throwback at some point or I don't know, it's not cerebral enough to just so there's.

Salina: This whole thing about an ad in the paper that's too small.

Salina: Do you want to say anything about that?

Salina: It's up to you.

Nikki: There's an ad in the paper that's too small for Julia's liking.

Salina: That sounds like you might be reading a note.

Salina: Hard to say.

Salina: I think my main reaction was we get another size comment from Julia about Suzanne.

Salina: Apparently they're like doing construction next door.

Salina: She comes, I'm so tired, all these men hitting on me all day, every day, and she waves her hair around or something, right?

Salina: And Julia says, maybe they're not she said something about them commenting on her chest.

Salina: And Julia says, well, maybe they're just commenting on your buns or something.

Salina: Which was supposed to be you could definitely tell we're in the 80s because that's like when you didn't want to have a big b***, which doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Salina: But anyways, it's just another size comment and something that I was ah, shut up, Julia.

Nikki: Were they also not allowed to say b*** on TV?

Salina: Maybe that's just not in line with Julia's character because buns was used.

Nikki: But buns was used by Julia and also the next episode by Mary Jo.

Salina: Well, if you think I'm looking into that, you're crazy.

Nikki: Okay?

Nikki: She won't be reporting back on they.

Salina: Were if they were using the b word, not but for females, which is inappropriate.

Salina: Why would but be a problem?

Salina: Maybe LBT just doesn't like the word.

Nikki: But maybe who knows?

Nikki: Who knows?

Nikki: I want to say that charlene wondering about the dollar.

Nikki: This is so inconsequential.

Nikki: But since we're going there, she says she wants to distract Julia from this ad.

Nikki: So she's coming up with all these ways to distract Julia.

Nikki: She says, don't I owe you a dollar?

Nikki: And Julia's like, no, you don't care about that stuff.

Nikki: And she's like, no, but here you go.

Nikki: Here's a dollar.

Nikki: And then she goes into, like, have you ever wondered if someone you used to know has ever touched your dollar?

Nikki: I've literally never thought of that, and it blew my mind.

Salina: Oh, she got profound on you.

Nikki: I was like, oh, my God.

Nikki: I think maybe in the past I've thought, could a famous person have touched it?

Salina: Oh, yeah, that's what I thought when I was I rewatched the episode to get myself fresh, right.

Salina: And I had that thought, like, that would be a little bit more interesting to me.

Salina: Yeah, but then actually, I think normally my thought is how much fecal material is gross?

Salina: Selena or like they've ran those studies where they're like 100% of money has cocaine on it.

Salina: So these are the kinds of things that go through my so there's not.

Nikki: Enough poop expertise out there.

Salina: There really know, but I'm bringing it to the so there was a fairly.

Nikki: Inconsequential missing script alert after Suzanne announces the guys next door cat calling her.

Nikki: I'll just mention it because we usually try to mention these things and I noticed it for once.

Nikki: So she just says, Julia, just once I'd like to walk in here and make a statement without being personally attacked.

Nikki: And Julia says, Well, I could cut down, but I wouldn't want to have to go cold turkey.

Nikki: So they cut that and I can tell from your sorry I'm sitting here.

Salina: I'm like, that was way too deep for me.

Salina: And when I listen back to it, I'm going to be like, did our audio just drop?

Salina: Just Selena trying to think it's basically.

Nikki: Julia saying, like, I can't not personally attack you.

Nikki: You're my sister.

Salina: Right.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: So Suzanne gets a phone call, is sort of what happens next.

Nikki: And it's Jack, her ex husband, and he wants to have dinner with her.

Nikki: She's pretty difficult about the whole thing.

Nikki: Like, didn't we just have dinner six months ago or last year or something?

Nikki: And so he just tells her on the phone he wrote an autobiography and wants her to read the manuscript.

Nikki: And she like to say that she's less than interested would be a massive understatement.

Nikki: She could not care less.

Nikki: Her concern is like, how long is it?

Nikki: Because if it's too long, I'm not reading.

Salina: I know.

Salina: Her reaction is so funny to me.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: So something in this part that stuck out to me is Suzanne says she'll send Anthony to pick it up and just revisiting the character of Anthony.

Nikki: He is not her messenger.

Nikki: And that just really bothered me.

Salina: Right.

Salina: Just automatically.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: It was so annoying and it just irritated me.

Salina: Do you think it's kind of strange with as self loving as she is, that she would not be interested?

Salina: I mean, I can see her being not interested in reading.

Salina: I'm not saying Suzanne isn't smart.

Salina: I think Suzanne is smart, but she's kind of said, eh, reading is for readers.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: I think in her mind.

Nikki: So what she goes into a little bit later is that her ex husbands have never had anything unkind to say about her.

Nikki: There's not going to be anything interesting in there.

Nikki: She's going to read more of what she already knows, which is Jack is still pining for her.

Nikki: He is still in love with her the way he used to be.

Nikki: And so I just think she thinks there's not going to be anything interesting in there.

Nikki: They do talk a little bit about their marriage.

Nikki: It could not have been the best marriage because he only wanted to talk about one thing, which was baseball.

Nikki: He only wanted to talk about his Salaba balls, otherwise known as spitballs.

Nikki: And he didn't want to talk about the stuff she was interested in her.

Salina: Right.

Salina: Well, and that's what I actually I think what was really a standout for me is you cannot have two people in a relationship who both need to be the center of attention, and it doesn't matter what that topic is.

Salina: If the topic also includes them and that's it, then you're dead in the water.

Salina: Somebody is not going to be getting their needs met.

Salina: Right.

Salina: So they had more in common in the bedroom than out, is what we learn.

Nikki: For sure.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: She does have one worry, though, about what he might reveal in this book.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Why don't you tell us that one?

Nikki: She's really worried.

Nikki: He might mention she rolls her pajama bottoms up when she runs out of underwear.

Salina: Yep.

Nikki: It doesn't superfly with all of her previous comments about having a maid.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: Because why would she be low on underwear?

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Where are you?

Nikki: Consuela.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Get together.

Salina: Not there yet.

Salina: But another maid was any maid.

Nikki: Any maid.

Nikki: So yeah, that's before we get into Julia reading it, anything you want to say?

Salina: Maybe just we can say why Julia is reading it.

Nikki: Yes, we're going to say so what happens next is Anthony comes back and he has fetched this manuscript for her.

Salina: Well, Julia also offers to read it because I think one other thing that seems really important here is that it seems that Suzanne has a little bit of a different memory of what this marriage was like than Julia.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Something in it sounds like it was really tumultuous.

Nikki: You mean the fact that he rode on the front of her car to the police station a few times?

Salina: Yeah, I think that probably is a good hint.

Salina: So thank you for giving that specific example, because that is important.

Salina: And so for that reason, Julia and I feel like Julia is probably thinking, even from the vantage point of we're sugar Bakers, we have a name and.

Nikki: A oh, that's a good point.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: And I think she doesn't say those things, but we also know she is very protective over Suzanne.

Salina: Only she can abuse Suzanne, no one else.

Nikki: And she has a really realistic view of Suzanne, so she knows there's no way this book is only going to contain glowing things about this woman.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: I know my sister.

Salina: And so Suzanne says, like, you can read it, and I'm I don't care.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I'm not even gonna ask you any questions about it except for, again, the roll up of the right.

Nikki: We need to know if that happens.

Nikki: But other than that yeah.

Nikki: Julia, you read it to your heart's content.

Nikki: So she sends Anthony off, he brings it back, and when the scene kind of comes back in, anthony is downstairs with the ladies, with Mary Jo and Charlene, and Julia's not in the scene because she's allegedly upstairs reading this book, and she told anthony, don't bother her unless there's a fire.

Nikki: And it's reached the second floor.

Nikki: She wants to be up there on her own.

Nikki: So anthony reveals that the book fell open in the car.

Nikki: He certainly did not read it, but it fell open, and the dude had more groupies than all the rock stars in north America.

Nikki: So the book apparently contains reference to extramarital affairs while he was married to suzanne.

Nikki: And just as those words come out of his mouth almost, julia comes down the stairs and confirms his sexual bombing strikes on major american cities.

Nikki: And so as she comes down and tells the other women that he was stepping out on suzanne, like, a lot, suzanne comes in, and suzanne's sort of like, why are you guys all so serious?

Nikki: What's going on?

Nikki: I know that book doesn't say anything bad about me.

Nikki: I know he's still in love with me.

Nikki: Like, he couldn't say anything bad.

Nikki: And after a little bit of back and forth, julia finally tells her that that's what happened.

Salina: Yeah, there's some romance in the book.

Salina: It wasn't with you, lady.

Nikki: There's adventure, there's action, there's romance.

Nikki: And tells her, yeah, and it wasn't you.

Salina: And then she was interested in reading.

Nikki: She was very interested and wanted to know right where to start.

Nikki: And julia knew where she should start.

Nikki: Chapter four girls of the royal Canadian mounties.

Salina: Next we get to do something fun.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I feel like it's something that we never do.

Salina: We actually get to go somewhere.

Salina: Yay.

Nikki: I like field trips.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: We spend a lot of time in sugar breakers.

Nikki: We do.

Salina: So I think that shows just how maybe this kind of turned suzanne's world upside down.

Salina: They're going day drinking.

Salina: Presumably this isn't the next day.

Salina: I probably should have done an outfit check, but I honestly didn't.

Nikki: I think they were wearing the same outfits.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: But they're in kind of, like, CD is let's say nondescript.

Nikki: CD is the first word that comes to mind, but nondescript is better.

Salina: It's like a nondescript bar.

Salina: Suzanne is obviously she's having some medicine.

Nikki: Liquid.

Salina: Liquid medicine.

Salina: And I mean a lot of medicines.

Salina: Liquid.

Nikki: Whatever, man.

Nikki: It could have been pills, could have been powder.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: For all we know, she's having all of it.

Salina: We don't know what's happening in the bathroom, but that's where they are.

Salina: It's all of our ladies.

Salina: No anthony.

Salina: So he gets to go pick up the book, but he doesn't get to go to the bar.

Salina: I don't know about all this.

Nikki: Maybe he doesn't drink.

Salina: We would take him with us.

Nikki: I would totally go to the bar with Anthony.

Salina: Absolutely.

Salina: But I would need Suzanne there, too, after this scene.

Salina: You betcha I would need her there.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: So they're in this bar she's blowing off.

Salina: Know one thing I don't know we've mentioned to this point is that her husband isn't just a pro baseball player, right?

Salina: He's a very specific baseball player.

Salina: He's an Atlanta Brave.

Nikki: Go Braves.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: And I'm going to go ahead and say that I'm very excited because just we're going to do a quick in the middle of the show promo that Nikki is going to do extra sugar this week.

Salina: And she is going to talk about the Atlanta Braves and their story.

Salina: Something I don't know anything about sports.

Nikki: Hang in there, Selena, you're going to learn a lot.

Salina: That's right.

Salina: But anyway, so they're in this bar and all of a know they're having a conversation about everything that's happened.

Salina: But Jack comes on.

Salina: So I don't know, I guess it's like I don't even know if ESPN is a thing then whoever is doing maybe it's just a local sports station or TBS.

Salina: So they're having some sort of conference and he's talking and Suzanne is booing him.

Salina: There's like a funny exchange between her and a patron at the bar.

Nikki: Do you know who the patron of the bar is?

Salina: I know he looked very familiar to me.

Nikki: He's Roger Pedaktor from Ace Ventura.

Salina: Well, he's been in a lot of stuff.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: He's worked super steadily since the early 80s.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: If you're going to take my filmography.

Nikki: Oh, sorry, did you have it?

Salina: I don't, but I'm just saying he.

Nikki: Had Step by Step Home Improvement, Party of five in a lot of movies.

Nikki: He's usually like the cop type.

Salina: Yeah, he probably is like an off.

Nikki: He's very excited.

Nikki: He turned around and I was like, it's Roger Pandaktor because I know Ace Ventura likes the back of my hand.

Salina: I see that.

Salina: That's very impressive.

Salina: Well, there you go, guys.

Salina: So the guy from Ace Ventura turned around.

Salina: I haven't seen that movie since I was nine.

Nikki: Reason enough to tune in.

Salina: There you go.

Salina: And they have like a funny little interaction.

Salina: I was just going to say that we get a sneak peek of their marriage.

Salina: I think.

Salina: Again, this whole idea she has a different visual of their marriage.

Salina: She does not think that things went well between the two of them.

Salina: But I think the story she tells about something that happened between the two of them years ago really sets the stage for what their relationship was.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: Like it's not right.

Salina: It was not right.

Nikki: It ain't right.

Salina: Right.

Salina: She's got this story down cold because it even has a date attached to it.

Salina: Okay, so on August 26, 1983, y'all, august 26, she put Ben Gay in his cup, his athletic cup after a huge fight and right before some huge game that the Braves had with the Pirates and they lost nine to one.

Nikki: Thanks, Suzanne.

Salina: She always felt bad.

Salina: She does not feel bad anymore.

Nikki: No, not at all.

Salina: And I think the other thing that seems to be at play here is we're getting some insight.

Salina: Here's my thing and tell me what you think.

Salina: I don't really think she gives a darn that he cheated on her.

Salina: I think she cares that she's embarrassed because people are going to know.

Nikki: I think that's right.

Nikki: Do you have the missing script here?

Salina: You know what?

Salina: I don't think I pulled any missing script for this one.

Nikki: So the script place we have doesn't assign names to things.

Nikki: So I just have the script, and we can kind of assume who says what.

Nikki: But what I have that was missing says, oh, I would hardly dignify him by calling him affairs.

Nikki: Someone says, at least he was discreet.

Nikki: He didn't name names.

Nikki: He didn't have to.

Nikki: He named the state.

Nikki: Oh, it's not fair.

Nikki: He gets all the adulation, she gets all the humiliation.

Nikki: Oh, well, after all, he deserves it.

Nikki: He's Mr.

Nikki: Jack atlanta saliva ball dent.

Nikki: I keep telling you, it's Spitball.

Nikki: Whatever.

Nikki: I mean, he's still one of the top five pitchers in the entire American Legion League, and it's national whatever.

Nikki: You know, that's got to be one of the problems in our marriage.

Nikki: Well, it doesn't matter.

Nikki: The reason I'm bringing that up is because we're establishing Jack dent again.

Nikki: You mentioned he was on TV.

Nikki: The guys at the bar really wanted to watch him.

Nikki: So, one, he's a really good baseball player, so yeah, he's probably not going to be too hurt by all this.

Nikki: And two, the adulation, and she gets the humiliation.

Nikki: That points to that double standard when extramarital affairs happen, that I think people assume something was wrong with the woman, that the man had to step out.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: So I think she's very worried about humiliation.

Nikki: I think that's her driving factor here.

Salina: And it's driving her in a cab over to go see her ex husband.

Nikki: She got a piece of her mind to give him.

Salina: Right.

Salina: I had one other thought that I wanted to share before she heads over to what I can only assume is Atlanta Fulton County Stadium.

Salina: At the time, I think my parting thought from this bar scene was that I was really impressed with Suzanne's acting.

Nikki: Oh, yeah.

Nikki: She is super funny.

Nikki: I would absolutely go drinking with her.

Salina: Well, her drunk acting is really good.

Salina: It's everything.

Salina: It's from the way she holds the glass to she's not putting it on so much where it's like slurring or anything like that, but she's just, like, way more relaxed than normal.

Salina: It is kind of acting perfection.

Nikki: I think it was great.

Salina: And she also does this great thing.

Salina: Oh.

Salina: It's like the way she's eaten the peanuts.

Salina: She wasn't really closing her mouth.

Salina: And I know that someone has to be listening to this and be like, you are paying very close attention.

Nikki: Yeah, I am.

Nikki: That's what we do.

Salina: Right.

Salina: But normally, I don't think she'd be someone that would chew with her mouth open.

Salina: That's not very polite.

Salina: And we know manners matter a lot to her.

Salina: So just kind of like these little telltale signs that she is not fully in control right now.

Salina: Right?

Salina: And then the best part is before she leaves, she's hottily running off and she goes the wrong way, which, by the way, is me every day, totally sober, and I don't need double martinis for it.

Salina: That's just natural.

Salina: So, big moment, she waltzes in the locker room at the stadium.

Salina: And it's so funny because obviously they're going to position all these guys as suddenly being modest and very discreet.

Salina: Maybe they would be, who knows?

Salina: I mean, I guess everybody would react differently.

Nikki: But it's the same thing that happens in Steel Magnolias.

Nikki: It is when they go into the locker room.

Salina: It is.

Nikki: I love a good women in the locker room scene.

Nikki: Oh, and it happens in major league.

Nikki: Another baseball movie happens a good amount.

Nikki: I love these kinds of scenes.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: As soon as she said she was headed there, I was like, yes.

Salina: But she snaps him with a towel and to get his attention, he turns around, he's very surprised.

Salina: He automatically knows that she's been drinking.

Salina: And I think this is again a place where we kind of see that she does not have her wits about her.

Salina: Well, her inhibitions are lowered.

Nikki: There you go.

Salina: Because again, it comes back to this thing of like I think what you do and what you present are very important to Suzanne.

Salina: And I don't know normally that she would have gone in there and said some of the things that she said out loud in front of all of these guys, including the fact that she's seen a lot of men naked, but who hasn't, am I right?

Salina: And actually, the thing is that's fine.

Salina: That shouldn't be a thing, right?

Salina: We shouldn't be sex shaming.

Salina: So that's all good.

Salina: It's just to me, it's again, it's that lowered inhibition.

Salina: I don't think she would have done that.

Salina: No, I think she would want to come off as a demure.

Salina: Whatever.

Salina: Funnily enough, I was sitting there thinking, I was like, well, of course you've seen how many times has she been married?

Salina: I hope she's at least seen those people naked.

Salina: But anyway, so they have this whole interaction that's basically it.

Salina: It's just one giant argument.

Salina: She lays claim to the Pirates victory in 1983, and he reminds her he.

Nikki: Wanted to talk to her before she read the book.

Nikki: That was the whole point in him wanting to have dinner with her.

Salina: That's true.

Salina: She blew him off.

Nikki: He wanted to talk to her.

Nikki: So it's clear he still has something that he needs to discuss with her that she needs to know as she's reading this book.

Salina: That's right.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: Everybody leaves because they start singing the national anthem.

Salina: He sticks around with her.

Salina: I think what struck me towards the end is like he was just trying to hit on her, which seems to me probably, I think, may have been some problem with their.

Salina: Marriage, too, is like he probably wanted to just have sex every time they were having an argument is my guess.

Salina: Over her maid.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Not have sex over her maid.

Salina: Hey, whatever.

Salina: Know what happened in the Dent Sugar Baker home, and it's not really any of our business.

Salina: Maybe this is why she kept saying, get your own maid.

Salina: I'm tired of having sex over I don't know.

Salina: Anyways, I think for me, she just basically turns him down and she heads out.

Salina: But again, if there is anything else that you wanted to talk about in.

Nikki: This there's something very important to talk about.

Salina: I missed something.

Nikki: So this is the first time that we've met Jack Dent, the actor who plays him.

Salina: Oh, yeah.

Nikki: Greg Henry.

Nikki: He's Logan's dad from Gilmore Girls, and also, apparently Peter Quill's grandfather in the Guardians of the Galaxy sequels, which I haven't yet seen.

Nikki: I have kids.

Salina: He's in the original one, too.

Nikki: Is he?

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: But I didn't remember that so straight away.

Salina: In fact, I was the most important.

Nikki: Thing in this entire scene to me.

Salina: Is like, Logan's dash.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: So it took me two weeks for it to finally hit me that that's who it was, because I think of him now as Hollis Doyle from So.

Nikki: Well, I'm rewatching Gilmore Girls for the fifth time right now.

Nikki: So I've just gotten to the Logan part.

Salina: Just got back to yeah, so well, good.

Salina: And now I don't have to talk about a reference.

Salina: I had to look up at the.

Nikki: Oh, sorry about that.

Salina: I'm not.

Nikki: Thank you.

Nikki: So in this last scene, Suzanne and Jack talk.

Nikki: They kiss and maybe make up a little bit.

Nikki: Maybe.

Nikki: I'm not sure.

Nikki: Anyway, we open in Suzanne's room.

Nikki: She's sleeping.

Nikki: She's got a face mask on.

Nikki: She's got her PJs on, and the phone's ringing, and the radio announcer is talking to her like usual.

Nikki: As it happens.

Nikki: It's 01:15 a.m..

Nikki: The radio host is threatening Suzanne, essentially.

Nikki: And then he hints that Jack is slouching around in the dark outside her house.

Salina: Oh.

Salina: I just feel like you know how we've had a conversation about how you and I have interpreted scenes completely differently?

Salina: I just really like this interpretation.

Salina: Because it's dark.

Nikki: Well, he's like, if you break his arm, the whole of Atlanta is going to turn on you.

Salina: Oh.

Nikki: Also, he's standing outside your house right now.

Nikki: It was just very creepy.

Salina: Right.

Salina: Well and he's also like, hope you get some.

Salina: Right.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: Get out of here.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: It was a weird setup.

Nikki: And then next thing we know, we hear Consuela, and she's screaming.

Nikki: She is losing her ever loving mind.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: She's threatening to kill him.

Nikki: I would, too.

Nikki: The radio.

Nikki: Announcer's threatening Suzanne.

Nikki: Now Consuela's threatening to kill him.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: So Jack comes in.

Nikki: He says, no, she's expecting me.

Nikki: And Suzanne says, let him in.

Nikki: Just let him in.

Nikki: We're going to talk.

Nikki: And in all of this, we get the big reveal.

Nikki: He didn't actually really have those affairs.

Nikki: He really wanted to write a book about baseball.

Salina: He did?

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: He just wanted to write about, like, I don't know, spitballs and saliva balls and whatnot.

Nikki: But they wouldn't accept it.

Nikki: That's boring.

Nikki: Who wants to read a book about baseball?

Nikki: People barely watch baseball.

Salina: I can definitely see this really happening.

Nikki: For sure.

Nikki: Which is why I totally bought it.

Nikki: He was super earnest about the whole thing.

Nikki: What did you say?

Salina: Here, I buy it.

Salina: Right now.

Nikki: Right now.

Salina: At this point in the episode, he.

Nikki: Was really earnest about the whole thing.

Nikki: He was super sweet, actually, about it, and was like he recognizes they had a tumultuous relationship, but he also genuinely really loved her.

Nikki: He really loved what they had.

Salina: Well, and he says as much because.

Nikki: Of the dedication, which is what he actually wanted her to see.

Nikki: He wanted her to see that the book was dedicated to her.

Nikki: And she says, like, well, what did it say?

Nikki: He says, thank you for being there and for having large breasts.

Salina: Which it feels like this is this guy's Mo is like, he starts with something nice, and then it's something that's, like, jacked up.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: Because he had already said sorry, because the other thing that happened was he also was like, he was starting a sweet talker.

Salina: You could see that she was coming around, and then he was like, and every time I make love to another woman, I picture your face.

Salina: Something like that.

Nikki: Come on, man.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: And she's like, okay, you were almost there.

Salina: Right?

Nikki: I will say maybe it's sort of tied to the cold open.

Nikki: I said this cold open felt really inconsequential.

Nikki: It opened with those construction men talking about her large breasts.

Salina: Well, so my whole thing, this whole time has been we've been talking about Suzanne's breasts the whole episode.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: And they're actually referenced a lot in the and so are Mary Jo's.

Nikki: Oh, that's true.

Salina: A know.

Salina: But just the opposite side of the spectrum, if you will.

Nikki: So he does he's really earnest with her.

Nikki: He tries to make it up to her and tell, like, this was not intended, how it was supposed to happen.

Nikki: I ended up accidentally not accidentally, I ended up writing these sections with other guys on the bus, and they end up coming to kind of a deal that he's not going to publish the book.

Nikki: Obviously, you can't publish this.

Salina: Well, he'll rewrite those parts.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: And also, it's not just like they come to an agreement.

Salina: She makes him swear.

Nikki: Sure.

Salina: Or may lightning strike him.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: Which he doesn't appreciate, apparently.

Nikki: Yeah, apparently this has happened.

Nikki: A timer, too.

Salina: But he does agree.

Nikki: Sure.

Nikki: Yes, he agrees.

Nikki: And then he tries to sleep with her.

Nikki: Yeah, one time, two times, three times.

Nikki: I lost count.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: It doesn't work.

Salina: No, it doesn't.

Nikki: She's not having it.

Salina: Well, she's also hungover.

Nikki: She's hungover.

Nikki: She's very tired.

Nikki: She kind of kicks him out.

Nikki: But before he goes, they have a little bit of a sweet exchange.

Nikki: Well, they're not yelling at each other.

Nikki: He tells her he might throw a no hitter tomorrow and maybe even hit a home run for her.

Nikki: And then as he's on his way out, he says, remember that athletic cup which you talked about in the second act of the show where Suzanne says that she put Ben Gay in his athletic cup?

Nikki: He says, now we're even.

Nikki: My notes say.

Nikki: But what does it all mean?

Salina: Right?

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: Does that mean there were groupies?

Salina: Does that mean he had been cheating on her that whole time?

Salina: Or he's just not going to rewrite those parts?

Nikki: Oh, that's probably the most likely, because.

Salina: That could be it, too.

Salina: It could be that maybe he really didn't cheat on her because he swore two things.

Salina: He swore that he didn't cheat, and he swore he'd rewrite the parts.

Salina: But if he really wants that book to come out right, then maybe he's just not going to rewrite those parts and the book will still come out.

Salina: I love ambiguous endings like this because it's just good.

Salina: Fodder.

Nikki: The other thing that crossed my mind was that this was all a farce.

Nikki: The whole time he was trying to send her spiraling a little bit, and it worked.

Nikki: He wasn't ever actually going to publish the book as it was written.

Nikki: Yeah, maybe like it was just make believe.

Nikki: That was the only other explanation I could come up with.

Salina: More stuff.

Salina: Right, right.

Salina: More things that it could have been.

Salina: I don't know if we'll ever see Jack again or not, honestly.

Nikki: You might have to watch Gilmore Girls.

Nikki: Watch him as Logan hunts Mitch.

Salina: Mudsberger or bunheads?

Salina: He's also in Bunheads.

Nikki: Oh, that makes sense.

Nikki: So that's really it.

Nikki: That's the end of the episode.

Salina: All righty, well, are you ready to rate this sucker?

Nikki: I am.

Nikki: All right, let's do it.

Nikki: I wanted to go with burning athletic cups.

Salina: Well, I think we're on the same wavelength because I went with Effervescent jock straps.

Nikki: So actually, I thought it sounded really negative.

Nikki: Yours sounds really positive, so I switched mine.

Nikki: And I want to go with nat diplomas because in the very beginning of the episode, when Julia is talking about the ad, she says something about, like, it's the size of a nat diploma or something for how tiny it is.

Salina: Which could be cousins to the fleas.

Nikki: It's all coming together, isn't it?

Nikki: And see, I think higher education is always a good thing, so I didn't want to go with something negative, so I'm going with nat diplomas.

Nikki: I thought this episode was like.

Salina: Suzanne.

Nikki: Is married to a or was married to a professional baseball player.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: And then she was seduced post marriage by said professional baseball player.

Nikki: So in one world, that's a wild concept to be married to a professional baseball player.

Nikki: But we talked in an episode recently about the social circle that the Sugar Bakers run with.

Nikki: So in Atlanta social circles that actually might be believable where she is, like the fact that she would have that run in with an Atlanta athlete at her level.

Nikki: So it's a little bit believable.

Nikki: It was the right for me.

Nikki: It was the right amount of tied into Atlanta society.

Nikki: So that one episode with the seams from a marriage, it was this outrageously wealthy random couple that really had no class whatsoever.

Nikki: My complaint about that episode was it didn't feel true enough to the society level that we knew the Sugar Bakers ran in.

Nikki: This very much feels true to that.

Nikki: That's what I want to hear in an episode about Suzanne.

Nikki: I loved how she stood up for herself, even if she had to drink a little bit to do it.

Nikki: I love how she talked him down, maybe from writing the book without sleeping with him.

Nikki: It was purely her charm that did it.

Nikki: I also loved Jack.

Nikki: I thought he was adorable.

Nikki: I was totally charmed by could and he was charmed by Suzanne in a big way.

Nikki: So I could totally go for more of that dynamic in that character.

Nikki: There were no weird subplots.

Nikki: We didn't have to follow some random train somewhere to catch some random sub story.

Nikki: The episode carried itself.

Nikki: It didn't whiplash from scene to scene.

Nikki: So I'm giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up and five Nat diplomas.

Nikki: Give me more of this.

Salina: Two number fives.

Nikki: Now two number fives.

Salina: What does that give you?

Salina: A burger and a shake.

Nikki: Give me more of this.

Nikki: What about you, Selena?

Salina: I gave it three and a half out of five.

Salina: Effervescent.

Nikki: What happened to you?

Salina: Well, I'm super excited about it now that I've heard it through and seen it through your eyes.

Salina: I mean, I did really like it.

Salina: Suzanne, I like the fact that she's so blindly confident sometimes that I really like plots that get her a little rattled.

Salina: Yes, I see that because I think it's the closest we get to some character development with her.

Salina: I've already said this, but I really just again, I'll say the bar scene, her perfection.

Salina: If we were just going to go on the bar scene, I'd say five out of five.

Nikki: It was glorious.

Salina: I like the fact counter not counter, but I would say a supplement to what you're saying about this feeling like it could happen in Atlanta society circles.

Salina: These are real mean.

Salina: Well, they're rich people stakes, but they're real stakes because it would I mean, I'm just putting myself in shoes.

Salina: If an ex was going to put out a book that would somehow be slanderous to me or there was just something in there that would be embarrassing for me, then it feels like something that I might go drunkenly chase you down and snap you with a towel in the locker room over.

Salina: So it just felt like sometimes in these episodes I'm like, what are we really fighting for here?

Salina: But in this one I'm like, okay, I can see the anger seemed warranted.

Salina: The emotion seemed warranted.

Salina: In general, I thought it was fun.

Salina: I love that we got a chance to meet her ex and someone who is a prominent person in atlanta.

Salina: So I think our ideas of what we like are kind of circling one another.

Salina: And for me, actually, the last scene just fell apart a little bit for me.

Salina: I don't know what to make of him.

Nikki: Oh, really?

Salina: Yeah, I really don't.

Salina: Because part of and this is the kind of guy that I've just never really I don't know, it just seems swarmy.

Nikki: See, and I see him as well intentioned, but he got a couple of.

Salina: Balls to the head.

Nikki: Awkward.

Nikki: Yeah, he's well intentioned.

Nikki: His heart is in the right place.

Nikki: He's a good old boy who wants to do the right thing.

Nikki: But he's a professional baseball player.

Nikki: He's out on the road a lot.

Salina: He's just got that p**** is always in the way right there between the legs.

Salina: One p**** in front of a good decision.

Salina: If you can just work your way around it, you'll find your answer.

Nikki: I think it's less about the anatomy and more about the concussions, honestly.

Salina: Can it be both?

Nikki: It could be.

Nikki: That's true.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: It's just a tough combination.

Nikki: If he had to rip that jock strap off after it had the ben gay, you might have had to play without a jock strap and then it really could have been both.

Salina: Let's just talk about I did not have this in my notes to talk about this, but the fact that he got through the game, he may be the strongest person alive.

Nikki: Unless he didn't.

Nikki: If he ripped it out and played without a jaxtrap, although maybe he is.

Salina: It feels like it would still keep.

Nikki: Burning ball to the crotch.

Salina: There you go.

Salina: And that, guys, is no, wait, where are wrong segment.

Salina: I forget.

Salina: So did you have a combination of 80s, southern or unknown references?

Nikki: I think you could put having the sheets Martinized in this combination category for me.

Salina: Good one.

Salina: Oh, me too.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: Yeah, I didn't but I put it in 80s.

Nikki: But so he comes to her bedroom and says, can I sit down on your bed?

Nikki: Sorry, I'm dirty from the ballpark.

Nikki: I'll have your sheets Martinized.

Nikki: I looked this up and I did not take good notes.

Nikki: So I'll say my basic understanding is it is like a revolutionary version of dry cleaning.

Salina: Yeah, that was my first take and then my second take was it's dry cleaning?

Salina: I think it used to be.

Salina: And I could be wrong.

Salina: So I don't want to have another 711 situation.

Salina: I don't want to have to come back and apologize maybe we should just.

Nikki: Say, look it up yourself, come to your own conclusion.

Salina: Yeah, good luck anyways.

Salina: But it sounds like they used to have the you couldn't just have it done the dry cleaning there on site.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: The chemicals were so dangerous that you'd have to take it off premise.

Salina: It was like this whole thing.

Salina: And so when this martinization process comes along, the chemicals were strong but soft.

Salina: The jingle's coming together for me right now.

Nikki: Meanwhile, I'm over here thinking, what can I make Nikki Ozation?

Salina: What's going to make us money, Nikki?

Salina: Keep going with that.

Salina: Translucent.

Salina: But anyway, so I think the idea is that they were able to bring it on premises.

Salina: They were able to do it faster, they were able to do it cheaper.

Salina: But all of these things sort of sound like just dry cleaning.

Salina: So I don't know.

Nikki: But it's a way of getting your sheets cleaned.

Salina: There you go.

Nikki: Send them off, get them clean.

Salina: If you want to get Martinized, get it.

Salina: If you don't, don't.

Nikki: I don't care.

Salina: I don't have any stakes in this particular game.

Nikki: That's the only one I had.

Salina: I do have stakes in one more combination reference.

Salina: Mine were Braves jerseys because I looked at his Braves jersey and I was like, is this a legitimate Braves jersey from 1997?

Nikki: Was it?

Salina: It was Yay, from what I could tell because I just looked at his on screen and then I pulled up.

Salina: I did hit up the old googs and it appears to be legit.

Nikki: Good for you.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Good for Atlanta.

Nikki: That didn't occur to me.

Salina: Good for Nikki.

Salina: Good for everyone.

Salina: Kind of cute, too, but anyways, so 80s things.

Nikki: I've brought this one up a couple of times, I think.

Nikki: Every time you look at me like I'm weird, but Suzanne removed her earring when she went to talk on the phone.

Salina: That's what you think.

Salina: But it's also on my list.

Nikki: All right.

Salina: Because I'm so young that I forgot that was a thing, even though I'm older than you by three months.

Salina: But also she's on the landline.

Nikki: Yes.

Salina: So that has an 80s fill to it.

Salina: Yeah, that's it.

Nikki: That's all I got.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: I only had two other things.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Ads in print, newspapers again, we know.

Nikki: These still happen, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Salina: Which I might think that maybe it's time now that we're coming close to the season ending to call it maybe 80s or dated things.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Just for anybody that is getting annoyed with the fact that maybe these carried on past the 80s, asking the bartender to call her a cab instead of just popping on your phone and calling.

Nikki: Up, OOBs, I'm also not sure that was appropriate.

Nikki: I don't think the bartender was there to call cabs for you.

Salina: I think that happens a lot.

Salina: Really?

Nikki: If I were a bartender, I'd be like, go buy yourself a phone.

Salina: That's what you think.

Salina: Until you can't get the drunk person out of there, and then you're calling a taxi really fast.

Nikki: Yeah, that might be some of my.

Salina: Old Bartending days creeping up there.

Salina: You serve one guy that last drink that puts him over the edge, and he's drooling on your bar and then proposes marriage to you because he obviously cannot see you straight.

Salina: You just know I was very happy to call a taxi for him.

Nikki: Sounds like a good Friday night to me.

Salina: For him, less so for me.

Salina: And then Southern things.

Nikki: This one's a little bit of a reach.

Nikki: So the Atlanta Braves.

Nikki: Obviously, Atlanta Braves is southern.

Salina: Check my list.

Salina: Go on.

Nikki: Okay, so Atlanta Braves was southern.

Nikki: That was an extra sugar.

Nikki: We'll cover that a little bit more.

Nikki: He says to her, You've got your deal on backwards there.

Nikki: Talking about her nightgown.

Salina: That's a great one.

Nikki: It feels like if you're not Southern, maybe that doesn't feel particularly Southern.

Nikki: I don't know.

Nikki: But you've had family members say before, like, that deal over there.

Nikki: Yeah, for sure.

Nikki: It's just like a word you use for referring to a thing of some unknown description.

Salina: I think that's great.

Nikki: That's the only one I got so good.

Salina: Well, perfect references that you needed to look up or maybe we should talk about.

Nikki: For some reason, I had to look up Andy Rooney.

Nikki: This was in the beginning again, I think, when Charlene brings up that dollar and Julia says to her, do you have an explanation for why you're sounding like Andy Rooney?

Nikki: Or something like that.

Nikki: So he was an American radio and television writer who is best known for his weekly broadcast, a Few Minutes with Andy Rooney, which was a part of 60 Minutes on CBS from 78 to 2011.

Nikki: His final appearance on 60 Minutes aired on October 2, 2011, and he died a month later at the age of 92.

Salina: Oh, wow.

Nikki: And then evelyn Wood, graduate.

Nikki: That was a reference Anthony makes when the women ask him if he read the book on the way.

Nikki: So what did you find out about Evelyn Wood?

Salina: Oh, you don't know?

Salina: I looked her up.

Nikki: Oh, okay.

Salina: I did.

Nikki: You're giving me that look.

Nikki: So she was an American educator and business person who was known for popularizing the concept of speed reading.

Nikki: She preferred to call it dynamic reading, but the idea was that she could increase a reader's speed over the average reading rate of 250 to 300 words a minute by a factor of three to ten times or more, while preserving and even improving their understanding of the content.

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: And did you read how they do it?

Nikki: I did.

Nikki: I didn't write it down.

Salina: I didn't write anything down.

Salina: I just remember one of the things being that instead of reading left to right, you read down, which I tried to do that, and I was like, no, this don't work for me.

Nikki: Doesn't work for me.

Nikki: But you didn't go to her course?

Salina: No.

Salina: So it was the Evelyn Wood reading dynamics institute.

Salina: Did you see how many words per minute she could read?

Nikki: I probably did.

Salina: 2700.

Nikki: That is a lot of words.

Salina: So I read a New York Times article.

Salina: I think it was like right after she passed.

Salina: So they were talking about everything that she accomplished.

Salina: And one of the things they said is that there was a person following her method who was reading 14,000 words per minute.

Nikki: Was this the person that read War and Peace in like 15 minutes?

Salina: No.

Salina: Oh, I don't know.

Salina: This was a textbook they were reading.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: So that much I knew.

Salina: It could have been the same person.

Salina: Maybe.

Salina: I'm not sure.

Nikki: It was crazy, right?

Salina: Meanwhile, I think I do all the things that these are the things you're doing wrong.

Salina: I don't know.

Salina: What are you going to do?

Nikki: That was the last one had okay.

Salina: So both of those I had Andy Rooney.

Salina: I think sometimes I get confused with Mickey.

Nikki: Mickey Rooney.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Same, same.

Salina: Okay, so the girls of the Royal Canadian Mounties, I got think the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is what they're referring to.

Salina: Not that I have that in my head.

Salina: Like, I had to go look that up again.

Salina: But obviously if you've ever seen Rocky and Bullwinkle or any I'm getting some side to side eyes.

Salina: Oh, was Rocky isn't there a Mountie in that?

Nikki: Oh, I don't know.

Salina: Well, now I think maybe I've got a reference messed up.

Salina: Anyways, it doesn't matter.

Salina: They're in red.

Salina: They've got the like it just feels like it's very much so baked into the culture things that you know about Canada, right?

Salina: Like, if you don't know anything else about Canada, you know, that what's this all about.

Salina: And something about maple syrup and the Mounties and sorry.

Salina: And sorry.

Nikki: If you watch Nickelodeon in the early 90s, you watched a lot of Canadian shows without realizing they were Canadian, but you always wondered, why did they say sorry?

Salina: Yeah, that's why I love the way they say sorry, actually.

Salina: But mine's from End of Green Gables is the reason why for that one.

Nikki: Mine may or may not be from Ace Ventura.

Salina: Well, different strokes.

Salina: And then I promise you more people will identify with you than with me.

Salina: So the only reason I really kept digging is because I was like, but what is it about these girls?

Salina: What's the deal with that?

Salina: And especially with the girls thing, the calendar, that's what it makes it sound, right.

Salina: Kind of salacious or something.

Salina: So I didn't find anything about girls.

Salina: I found stuff about women.

Salina: So I think that was just like off the cuff, the way that we like to call women girls, whatever.

Salina: So I have found an article that's just really interesting about the barriers that women had to face to get in to be a Mountie.

Salina: And essentially they were not allowed to apply for those positions until 1974.

Nikki: Is that right?

Salina: So I got an interesting article there.

Salina: Obviously, we talk about women's stuff a lot on this podcast and men's stuff and just people stuff, people stuff, all this stuff.

Salina: But anyways, I thought for some of the conversations that we have that it was kind of an interesting side note.

Salina: And then I looked up Martin ice, too.

Salina: So there you go.

Nikki: Okay, well, our next episode, ladies gents, people, episode 22.

Nikki: Incidentally, the season finale of season one of Designing Women, it's called Bachelor Suite.

Nikki: So we'd love everyone to follow along with us and engage.

Nikki: We're on Instagram at Sweet teantv facebook at Sweettv.


Nikki: And we are online.

Nikki: I always say this so awkwardly.

Nikki: I don't know why.

Nikki: We're on the World Wide Web, and we've mentioned this a couple times throughout the episode.

Nikki: But hang tight.

Nikki: For extra Sugar, we're going to dig into our hometown baseball heroes, the Bravos, the Braves, America's team.

Nikki: We're going to learn a little bit about the Storied team's history and what they have given to the city of Atlanta.

Salina: OOH.

Salina: Well, I'm going to go get some food.

Salina: Then I guess we'll see you around the bin by.

Nikki: Welcome to this week's Extra Sugar, where we're headed out to the ball game to learn about America's team, the braavos the Braves.

Nikki: That's right.

Nikki: Our hometown professional baseball team.

Nikki: If you're from Atlanta, you probably own a Braves hat or a Braves jersey, right, Selena?

Salina: Well or you have friends that will lend you their Braves gear.

Nikki: Well, that's nice.

Salina: My husband has some.

Salina: Does that count?

Nikki: It all counts.

Salina: Our household holds braves things.

Nikki: It all counts.

Nikki: Your friends have them.

Nikki: So you run with a good circle of people who have good judgment in sports.

Salina: I've got like seven shirts that I could go change into right now because my friends Alyssa and Sarah are so kind that they gave me all of it for today.

Nikki: So she is wearing a Brave shirt.

Nikki: She also has baseball related snacks.

Nikki: Do you want to go ahead and.

Salina: Tell the I got I know things.

Salina: I know the baseball war.

Nikki: Selena is not a sports person, but she is a sports food person.

Salina: It's the only reason to go.

Salina: And that's like what's really nice about baseball is that they're like really classic snacks.

Salina: So I picked up some Cracker Jacks.

Nikki: The classic snack.

Salina: Little hard to find in 2021.

Salina: Is that right?

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: I was, like, searching up and down the aisles.

Salina: It wasn't on the candy aisle.

Salina: It wasn't on the snack aisle.

Salina: It wasn't on the chip aisle.

Nikki: That's crazy.

Nikki: I would have put it with popcorn.

Salina: It was on, like, a random end cap.

Nikki: Oh, that's annoying.

Salina: But it's fine.

Nikki: It's fine.

Nikki: You got it?

Salina: I got that.

Nikki: And so for people who don't know what is Cracker Jack?

Salina: It's basically caramel popcorn.

Nikki: There you go.

Nikki: Yeah, it's delicious.

Nikki: So, Selena's, got it.

Nikki: She's going to munch a little bit because we're talking about the Braves because in episode 21, we met Suzanne's ex husband, Jack Dent.

Salina: It was big moment.

Nikki: It was a huge moment.

Nikki: So in the show, he's a veteran, beloved Atlanta Braves pitcher.

Nikki: Not real.

Nikki: He's not a real Brave.

Nikki: But since we're all about our home team of Atlanta, we couldn't pass up this opportunity to share a little bit about this storied team.

Nikki: And by we, I mean me.

Nikki: I strong arm Selena into this segment.

Salina: Baseball is a spectator sport.

Nikki: There you go.

Salina: So are extra sugars, right?

Nikki: So I think there's stuff in here that longtime Braves fans are going to know, but I think there's also some stuff in here that people will be.

Salina: Surprised about even if they grew up here.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: This is all going to be a surprise to you, Selena.

Salina: Well, I've got questions.

Nikki: Okay.

Nikki: You have a lot oh, no.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Well, I mean, is this year accurate?

Salina: My shirt says 1871.

Nikki: You know what?

Nikki: Let's get into it in just a second.

Salina: Oh, good, good.

Nikki: But I want to start with so do you have any good Braves memories?

Nikki: You did grow up in Atlanta.

Nikki: You are a true atlantean.

Nikki: So do you have any good memories?

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: Well, I've got a little bit of a shameful thing to say, which is I have not been to the new stadium.

Salina: Oh, yeah.

Salina: It's far.

Salina: I've been to the park.

Nikki: Oh, okay.

Salina: And at eight, like, we were actually going to go a couple of weeks ago.

Salina: So I was finally going to get my first shot to go and it got rained out.

Salina: So other memories.

Salina: I mean, the first time I ever went to a Braves game, I was eight years old.

Salina: I went, my mom and my god mother Sherry.

Salina: Shout out to my mom and my godmother Sherry.

Nikki: Hey, Mama Selena.

Nikki: Hey, Sherry.

Salina: Love you both.

Salina: And there's actually pictures from that day.

Salina: I wonder who has those.

Salina: That doesn't matter.

Salina: So, I mean, I don't really remember much except for being really excited because it was like the first time I'd ever gone.

Salina: So I am old enough that it was in Atlanta, fulton county.

Salina: I remember going there for the first time and then I don't know.

Salina: It's just this thing you did.

Salina: Braves tickets have historically been very affordable.

Salina: And so whether you were a poor college kid or a poor high school kid or a poor young adult or.

Nikki: Whatever, anyone low on funds but looking for entertainment, yes, you could get some.

Salina: Nosebleeds and you could go have a good time.

Nikki: That's very true.

Salina: I think it just makes me think of spending time with friends.

Salina: It makes me think of hanging out.

Salina: It makes me think of being in the parking lot and doing a little pregaming.

Salina: And it makes me think of having some good hot dogs and other kind.

Nikki: Of fair and Cracker Jack.

Salina: I don't think I've ever eaten Cracker Jacks at a baseball game.

Nikki: Is that right?

Salina: Yeah.

Salina: No, I definitely have not.

Salina: But I know that it's all in.

Nikki: It'S in the same area.

Nikki: I've also been to a lot of Braves games.

Nikki: It is definitely an Atlanta experience.

Nikki: I don't believe I've ever been to Atlanta.

Nikki: Fulton County Stadium.

Nikki: We moved here in 96.

Nikki: That's the same year they moved to Ted Turner.

Nikki: To Turner Stadium.

Nikki: Sorry, we'll get to that in a minute.

Nikki: So I've never been there, but since 1996, I've been probably to more games that I could count.

Nikki: Couple of fun facts.

Nikki: One, I have a home run ball.

Salina: Oh.

Salina: Who was the hitter?

Nikki: Jeff Francois.

Salina: Oh, okay.

Nikki: He's a gwinnett guy.

Salina: That's true.

Nikki: He went to Parkview High School right down the road.

Nikki: He was a standout for the Braves in his first season.

Salina: He's our age, right?

Nikki: Roundabout.

Nikki: Yeah.

Salina: Young.

Nikki: So his first season with the Braves was in 2004, and he was a standout.

Nikki: He was amazing.

Nikki: He never really quite hit those highs again.

Nikki: So he left the team in 2009.

Nikki: We saw him play probably in 2008, and he hit a home run ball, and it's coming, and we had these amazing seats in the outfield, and it's coming toward us.

Nikki: So Kyle goes up.

Nikki: The woman next to us goes up.

Nikki: I go down, because if a ball is coming at me, I'm going down.

Nikki: I don't want to get hit, so I'm going down to protect my head.

Nikki: And sure enough, the ball landed between Kyle and that woman at their feet right where I could grab it.

Nikki: So I grabbed the home run ball.

Nikki: So I have a Jeff Frank or home run ball, which is exciting.

Salina: Well, did Kyle or the other woman try and fight you for it?

Nikki: I think the other woman no, I gave it to Kyle.

Nikki: I mean, I don't really have a need for a home run ball.

Nikki: He says he recollects this story differently than I do, but we were on camera.

Nikki: I think I have a picture of a screenshot somewhere, and let's just say I think if you watch the playback, you would see what happened.

Nikki: I think the lady beside us was a little miffed.

Nikki: She left a little bit later.

Salina: Oh.

Nikki: Anyhow, I have a home run ball.

Salina: Oh, my.

Salina: So the plot thickens.

Salina: I just want to share real quickly that actually one of the reasons I have a really hard time enjoying myself at any sporting event, besides the fact that I'm easily bored, just so you guys know.

Salina: Poor Casey.

Salina: Because what it normally is is when everybody stands up and cheers.

Salina: I'm sitting there reading a book, and it's like everyone else is standing there's, this one long figure that's just, like, sitting there, like, completely preoccupied with something else.

Salina: But my worst fear is to wind up, like on the kiss cam.

Nikki: Oh, that does sound like okay, first.

Salina: Of all, why do.

Salina: I think I'm so good that they're going to like but it's not that.

Salina: That's what I want to be clear.

Salina: Nikki will I think she will attest to this that I don't have the best luck.

Nikki: Oh, yeah.

Salina: So if the Kiss cam was going to land on somebody who really didn't want to, it would it would totally be you.

Salina: Yes.

Nikki: And it would be you sitting next to a stranger.

Salina: And the way that you wanted to dive underneath the seats to avoid the ball would be what I would do if the Kiss cam came my way.

Nikki: I understand that.

Salina: That's why I'm on a podcast.

Nikki: There's no camera involved.

Salina: No.

Salina: I don't want anyone to see me.

Nikki: You're safe here.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: The Kiss cam sounds terrible and it's a lot of pressure.

Nikki: So my other standout memory not so great.

Nikki: You probably remember this one.

Nikki: In 2019, the Braves were in the playoffs and I think it was game four of the series.

Nikki: It was their first game back in Atlanta.

Nikki: She doesn't remember this at all.

Nikki: I took off work early that day because we had tickets at the new stadium and we were going to go watch the Braves.

Nikki: This was their chance to turn the series around and they scored a Major League Baseball record that day.

Nikki: But it was because they were the first team to allow ten runs in the first inning of an MLB playoff game.

Nikki: It was a freaking heartbreak.

Nikki: It was awful.

Nikki: There was so much excitement going into the stadium.

Nikki: I had never been to a playoff game before, so I was, like, shaking with excitement.

Nikki: And Kyle and my stepdad and I went, we got to our seats, we got all our snacks together, and the first home run got hit.

Nikki: And then the know, I don't know, in the first hit to get the guy on second base.

Nikki: And then the next hit, the guy moved to third, the other guy to the first, and it just kept going over and over and over was awful.

Nikki: It was terrible.

Nikki: It is a dark spot in my Braves memory, incidentally, I also helped get a guy kicked out of the stands during that game.

Nikki: Oh, but that's a story for another day.

Nikki: We won't go there.

Salina: Well, sorry, y'all.

Nikki: And then my last Braves memory is only tangentially a memory.

Nikki: I had a Chipper Jones poster.

Nikki: Chipper Jones is a legendary Atlanta brave.

Nikki: I had a poster of him on my wall, on the back of my door, probably from the time I was in 6th grade until we moved out of that house while I was in college.

Salina: 35.

Nikki: I wish I still had it.

Nikki: I think I threw it away.

Nikki: So we're going to start with the Boston years.

Nikki: That's right.

Nikki: Before they moved to the Southeast, before the Southeast became Braves country, boston was Braves country, sort of.

Nikki: The franchise was founded in 1871, like your shirt says, as the Boston red Stockings.

Nikki: Not to be confused with the Boston Red Sox, which was an American League team founded a few years later in 1901.

Nikki: The Braves were one of nine charter members of the National Association of Professional Baseball Players, later known as the National League.

Nikki: So that's the league the Braves play in.

Nikki: They were in Boston 82 years.

Nikki: They had a bunch of nicknames.

Nikki: They were called the Red Stockings, the Red Caps, the Rustlers and the bees.

Salina: Like cow rustlers, probably.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: They finally settled on the name the Braves.

Nikki: So when they were in Boston, they won four National Association pennants, ten National League pennants, and they won the World Series in 1914.

Nikki: And that came after a season in which the Braves were in last place as late as July 15.

Nikki: So July 15, really late in the season.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: So by past the midpoint, they were in last place, turned it around.

Nikki: That led to their nickname, the Miracle Braves.

Nikki: Would not be the last time that the Braves surprised professional baseball.

Nikki: So then there were two big moves after they lost a ton of their fans to the Red Sox.

Nikki: So remember, they were founded in 1871, red Sox in one.

Nikki: They lost a ton of fan to the Red, fans to the Red Sox.

Salina: Is that why wait?

Nikki: Oh, I don't know.

Nikki: I don't actually know.

Nikki: That might be.

Salina: You want to talk about a legend?

Salina: So I wonder if he just had that kind of sway.

Nikki: We may talk about a legend in just a minute.

Salina: Oh, somebody would shut up.

Nikki: Sorry.

Nikki: Part of the reason they lost so many fans is because they had a pretty bad record.

Nikki: They had a losing record in all but twelve of the 38 seasons since their World Series win.

Nikki: That sounds familiar.

Nikki: The franchise moved to Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 1953.

Nikki: Did you know they were in Wisconsin for a while?

Salina: I think that might be what I knew.

Salina: Oh, okay.

Salina: And maybe not the Boston thing.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: I think a lot of people knew they were the Milwaukee Braves for a while.

Nikki: They played at Milwaukee County Stadium and improved.

Nikki: They won two pennants, one in 1957 and one in 1958, and a World Series in 1957.

Nikki: That was thanks in large part to the hitting of Hank Aaron.

Nikki: And Kyle wanted me to throw out here that my in laws, his parents were at the game where he hit the home run record.

Salina: Okay, that's cool.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: He wanted me to say that 1974, they were at the game.

Nikki: Also, they had Eddie Matthews, who is another legendary Braves player, and Warren Spawn.

Nikki: So the Braves finished with a winning record in each of their 13 seasons in Milwaukee, but they still experienced a huge decline in attendance at the ballpark in the 1960s, so they moved to Atlanta after the 1965 season.

Nikki: So I'm going to call this next bit of history the TBS Years for anyone who's not from Atlanta.

Nikki: Not from the southeast.

Nikki: TBS is a television channel.

Nikki: So in 1976, the team was purchased by media entrepreneur Ted Turner.

Nikki: Ted founded CNN, which was the first 24 hours news channel, and he founded it here in Atlanta.

Nikki: He also founded WTBS, which became the nation's first superstation.

Nikki: It's kind of hard to explain a superstation, but it was this concept of taking a local channel and spreading it nationally via satellite.

Nikki: That sounds like not that interesting.

Nikki: That sounds like something that happens a lot now with cable TV.

Nikki: It actually didn't happen a lot in the 1970s, so only TBS and HBO were distributed this way.

Salina: It's hard to think of them on.

Nikki: The same yeah, they're totally different on TBS.

Nikki: He used to play the programming was a lot of like the Andy Griffith show, old TV shows.

Nikki: I used to come home from school and watch reruns of the Brady Bunch, like syndicated comedies, really.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: So the reason, though, that the founding of TBS is important to the Braves because this is sort of like, okay, now she's rambling.

Nikki: It's important to the Braves because Ted started airing Braves games on the channel to a national audience, which was kind of the first time in major league baseball that had ever happened.

Nikki: And he got a lot of criticism for it.

Salina: Oh, I didn't know that.

Nikki: Yeah, people said that having this very regional team broadcast nationally on this one channel was unnecessary.

Nikki: It was overly biased by like sports people.

Nikki: Sports people?

Nikki: Just people in general thought like I.

Salina: Don'T know why that sounds if that comes across rude to say sports people, I guess I'm thinking like casters or.

Nikki: Like analysts, people probably in the sports world.

Nikki: But I think other people were sort of looking at it like, it's his channel, I'm in whatever state, why am I watching the Atlanta Braves?

Nikki: But the reason they were watching the Atlanta Braves is because he owned the team and he needed more people watching them.

Nikki: And so as a result, they became one of the more popular teams in the country.

Nikki: So unfortunately, they suffered through a they have a nickname.

Nikki: Who does?

Salina: The Braves, which nickname because of this.

Salina: But now everything you say, I'm afraid I'm going to take something from go.

Nikki: For it, America's team.

Nikki: Yes.

Nikki: Right.

Salina: See, I know stuff.

Nikki: I know I figured you would.

Salina: Couldn't even tell you a Braves player's name.

Salina: But I know about the Ted Turner history.

Nikki: Yeah, I mean, that's a huge part of the team's history.

Nikki: It's really kind of legendary.

Nikki: It's really important to know they had a lot of dreadful seasons after this.

Nikki: They moved to Atlanta.

Nikki: They only made the playoffs twice in their 1st 25 seasons.

Nikki: In Atlanta, 1969 and 1982, there was.

Salina: This home in their skills.

Nikki: Sure.

Nikki: Maybe because the team was revitalized in the 90s.

Nikki: So I want to stop here and tie it back to episode 21 and say that this means the braves would not have been doing well in 1987 when Designing Women focused on Jack Dent and name check the team.

Salina: I see.

Salina: Because they had a winning season.

Nikki: Right.

Nikki: I looked it up.

Nikki: The starting pitcher in 1987 was a man named David Palmer.

Nikki: He actually didn't make it long in the organization, but he did end up coaching baseball at Parkview over here in Lilburn, which is where Jeff Francoir graduated from.

Salina: Look at that.

Salina: It all comes circles.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: Small towns.

Nikki: So during the early two thousand s, the Braves had one of the most remarkable runs in US.

Nikki: Sports history.

Nikki: They won an unprecedented 14 consecutive division titles from 1991 to 2005, with the exception of the 1994 season.

Nikki: But there was a labor dispute and the season wasn't even finished.

Nikki: So that's the only reason that's an exception.

Nikki: They played in the World Series five times in the 1990s, and they won the organization's third World Series championship in 1995.

Nikki: So pause for the cause again.

Nikki: I know I have a lot of these little things.

Nikki: 1991, we talked earlier about that, like early 19 hundreds turnaround.

Nikki: 1991 was another example of that.

Nikki: So they had done terribly through the 80s.

Nikki: This was the turning point.

Nikki: By 1991, the Braves had not ended a season since 1983 with more wins than losses.

Nikki: That's really sad, right?

Salina: That's a long time.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: In 1990, they led the National League in errors and finished in last place.

Nikki: However, the next year, in 1991, they became the first National League team to go from last place one season to first place the next.

Nikki: And that division title was the first of those 14 consecutive titles I just mentioned, which ended in 2005.

Nikki: So when you talk about the Braves, you talk about TBS, you talk about worst to first, and you'll hear some of those other names will pop up from time to time.

Salina: Well, if you're not first, you're last.

Nikki: There you go.

Nikki: I've heard that a time or two.

Nikki: So the team has had its ups and downs since 2005, including that really heartbreaking 2019 bid.

Nikki: So I won't go any further than that.

Nikki: Those were sort of the high points in the team's history.

Nikki: I do have to talk about a little controversy, though.

Salina: Please.

Nikki: So one of the points of our podcast is to talk about put light on some of those things that happen in the south that we're not particularly proud of, but we also can't just ignore it.

Nikki: So we should talk about it.

Nikki: So I want to talk a little bit about the name the Braves.

Nikki: It was first used in 1912, and it originates from a term for Native American warrior.

Nikki: So the organization has found itself in hot water with native populations since about the 1960s for their mascot choices.

Nikki: So Chief Nakahoma was the mascot from 1966 to 1985.

Nikki: The concept of that sort of tradition, according to Wikipedia, started with a 16 year old high school student who set up a teepee in the center field.

Nikki: Bleachers.

Nikki: He danced and ignited smoke bombs when the Brave scored.

Nikki: Was he 60s?

Nikki: Man, what a weird time.

Salina: Was he an American Indian?

Nikki: No.

Salina: Oh, okay.

Nikki: Not as far as I can tell.

Salina: Okay.

Salina: But the name was yeah, that wouldn't even make any sense for a whole lot, including the fact that TPS are associated, but it depends on what tribe.

Salina: It doesn't matter.

Salina: Okay, go on.

Nikki: The name wasn't officially assigned to that concept, and they weren't given that mascot, though, until they moved to Atlanta.

Nikki: So this happened when they were still in Milwaukee, so they moved to Atlanta.

Nikki: Chief Nakahoma was actually named by a contest, a fan contest.

Nikki: They said, Give us your best name for a mascot.

Nikki: The mascot was like a real life person.

Nikki: Unfortunately, for the first few years, that person was also white.

Nikki: But in 1968, a Native American man approached the Braves about having the mascot portrayed by a real Native American.

Nikki: The dude got the job.

Nikki: There you go.

Nikki: And he kept it until the mascot was retired in the 80s.

Nikki: So boo.

Nikki: Cultural appropriation.

Nikki: But yay, baby steps, right?

Salina: It's all about baby steps with the.

Nikki: Really is in the couple of additional facts about the mascot.

Nikki: The mascot was retired in 1986, so Chief Nakahoma went away in 1986, although he's been do they say why?

Nikki: I'm sorry.

Nikki: They do.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: They do.

Nikki: And it was not because of any of the cultural issues, controversy, anything.

Nikki: It was actually over a dispute between the team and the man about, like, he maybe missed some games.

Nikki: They didn't pay him.

Nikki: They had a dispute, and they mutually agreed to end the relationship.

Salina: When you said the man, I thought you meant, like, if you don't know what that means, look it up.

Nikki: Chief Nakahoma.

Nikki: The other point I wanted to make is that Chief Nakahoma was joined by Princess Winolata in 1983, but the woman who portrayed her had a really bad car accident and was out for the rest of the season, and they ended up just not bringing the mascot back.

Nikki: So that's the mascot.

Nikki: I do want to say controversy over the mascot started in about 1972, and it was alongside controversy about the Cleveland Indians.

Nikki: Incidentally, the Cleveland Indians have recently renamed themselves to the Cleveland Guardians because they also have had quite a bit of controversy at the time.

Nikki: The man who played Chief Nakahoma went on the radio and said, I think Indians can be proud that their names are used with pro sports teams.

Nikki: And the mascot survived the controversy.

Nikki: So after the mascot was retired, seems like that issue was sort of checked off.

Nikki: Like, we don't have to talk about Chief Knockahom anymore.

Nikki: But then we had the Tomahawk chop.

Nikki: So this started when the team's organist played the Tomahawk song in 1991.

Nikki: And it goes, oh, it took her a few runs at it, and she just kind of kept playing it, and suddenly it caught on.

Nikki: Toward the end of the season, when the team started winning, it was accompanied by the chop, which is where you take your forearm up and down with an open palm resembling a chop, even on t shirts.

Nikki: Uh huh.

Nikki: Incidentally, the Florida Seminoles also do the chop.

Nikki: So the Braves are not the only ones that do the chop right.

Salina: Or the noise right.

Nikki: No.

Nikki: And they do the same.

Nikki: Whim.

Salina: Right.

Salina: Because I remember being confused before.

Salina: I was like, what's happening?

Nikki: Yeah, I think there's one other team maybe that does it.

Nikki: But this is kind of interesting.

Nikki: So the foam tomahawk is something again, if you went to a Braves game in the 90s, early 2000s, you probably have a foam Tomahawk.

Nikki: They were developed alongside this chop motion with hands.

Nikki: It's so fascinating.

Nikki: This dude just went to the Braves concession manager and said, like, hey, you know what would be really cool?

Nikki: Foam Tomahawks.

Nikki: And the concession manager was like, yeah, that would be cool.

Nikki: So the dude went home, started making them, and then came back, showed them.

Nikki: They were like, these are great.

Nikki: We're going to start selling them.

Nikki: He quit his day job and started doing that full time.

Nikki: He made 8000 a day at one point.

Salina: What?

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: That's wild, right?

Salina: It is.

Salina: I'm so glad that was the way the story went because I thought you were going to be like and they stole his idea.

Nikki: Oh, that would have been sad.

Nikki: No.

Nikki: Yeah.

Nikki: Some of these stories are kind of like they seem up and up.

Nikki: I don't know.

Nikki: Anyhow, it's been a thing on and off over the years.

Nikki: Most recently, it was a big deal again, in that 2019 NLDS playoff series that I mentioned at the top of the show, the relief pitcher for the Cardinals, who we were playing, is Native American.

Nikki: He's a member of the Cherokee Nation.

Nikki: He said he thought it was really offensive.

Nikki: The chop, the song, all of it.

Nikki: So as a result, the Braves did not hand out Tomahawks at the game, they did not play chop music, and they did not show the top graphic on the screen when the Braves scored.

Salina: And this was in what year?

Nikki: This was 2019.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: So when the series came to Atlanta, they said, we're not going to do any of these things.

Nikki: So I genuinely think in all my years going to a Braves game, that's the first time I've ever not heard the stadium playing the Tomahawk chop.

Salina: What was the reaction in the city?

Salina: Do you remember?

Nikki: People still did it.

Nikki: That game wasn't much to write home about, although I do think we would have had an opportunity or two to do it.

Nikki: People just do it.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: But I think in general, people were sort of like, come on, it's our tradition.

Nikki: It's what we do.

Nikki: So they just do it.

Nikki: Anyway.

Nikki: The Braves ended up releasing a statement saying they're going to continue to work with Native tribes to evaluate their brand.

Nikki: So indeed, in the offseason, they ended up meeting with the National Congress of American Indians.

Nikki: This part of the story kind of makes me really proud.

Nikki: So it's one thing to say you're going to do something, and it's another thing to really do there's one there's performative, and then there's like, actual getting your hands dirty sort of addressing an issue.

Nikki: And it sounds like maybe they're headed in the direction of trying to address the issue.

Nikki: So I don't know, with those conversations they had between the Congress and the Braves what it included, because they really dodged questions about it.

Nikki: Between that end of the 2019 season into the 2020 season, we had the COVID issue.

Nikki: They started playing to empty stadiums.

Nikki: What we do know is that when they opened the 2020 season for people to come and watch the games, they were doing the chop and the chant.

Nikki: In July 2020, the Principal Chief of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians released a statement about the tribe's conversations with the Braves organization.

Nikki: I'm going to read this word for word because I don't want to get it wrong.

Nikki: The statement said that the EBCI, the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, believed that, quote, candid, thoughtful conversations are crucial to educating leaders and bringing about positive change.

Nikki: The statement also applauded, quote, the Braves'willingness to engage in this effort and look forward to continuing to build the relationship the Ecbi shares with them to present a model for how other professional sports teams can work with Native nations in a respectful and constructive manner.

Nikki: So the Chief stated that he's not offended by the name or the Tomahawk Chop or the cheer, but he respects everybody else's differing opinions.

Nikki: He said, I always took it as from the time I was a child or a teen, that it was an acknowledgment of the warrior spirit of Native Americans and their strength and so forth.

Nikki: To me, the only thing that's derogatory is Redskins and FYI, that's the Washington Redskins, a professional football team who is currently known as the Washington football team while they try to find a new name and branding.

Nikki: So I know that was a lot, but again, we talk a lot about.

Salina: How we don't want chills right now.

Nikki: It was kind of cool.

Nikki: It was kind of cool.

Nikki: I will say again, there's not much out in the world about what those conversations included.

Nikki: All I can assume I'm drawing lines from this man's statement to the fact that they did the Tomahawk chop and cheer.

Nikki: I can only draw the line that there must have been an understanding that it wasn't offensive for whatever reason.

Nikki: So I'm assuming it was a positive interaction.

Nikki: His comments sounded very supportive, but I don't know for sure.

Nikki: But it sounds like maybe those conversations happened and the agreement was made.

Nikki: So I don't know I think that.

Salina: Having the conversation is so important.

Salina: Yeah, I think we spend a lot of time, nikki and I have had a lot of conversations offline know, just being so scared to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing or whatever the case is.

Salina: And I think if people will come to the table with an open mind and a willing heart.

Nikki: We got to.

Salina: Get somewhere no matter what the issue is.

Nikki: And I think the other important thing is involving the voices of the affected group.

Nikki: So in this situation, the controversy is you're being stereotypical, you're being offensive to native populations.

Nikki: And so it's encouraging to me.

Nikki: The reason I say I'm kind of proud of this part of the story is because they brought those voices to the table, they acknowledged their experience, they acknowledged their life story and then opened themselves up to the conversation about it.

Nikki: So wanted to share that.

Nikki: Second to last thing I wanted to say.

Nikki: We were brainstorming this segment.

Nikki: Selena had suggested something on women's professional baseball la like A League of Their Own, which I loved, but I hated to miss the opportunity to talk about the Braves.

Nikki: She indulged me.

Nikki: So I promised you pointing fingers at Selena, a women's baseball tie in.

Nikki: I promised you I'd do it.

Nikki: So here you go.

Nikki: Okay, so first of all, if you've never watched A League of Their Own, do it.

Salina: Stop.

Nikki: Just go watch it.

Salina: Run, don't walk.

Nikki: Such a good movie.

Salina: Oh my gosh, the best.

Nikki: It chronicles the All American Girls professional Baseball League, which began play in 1943 and lasted twelve years.

Nikki: It was started by the Chicago Cubs owner who wanted to keep the ballparks busy during World War II in case they didn't have enough men to keep men's baseball running.

Nikki: So, anyhow, I found a camp that was held at the Atlanta Braves spring training facility that's called the All American Girls Baseball Camp, which was founded by a former Rockford Peach, Sue Zapay.

Salina: What?

Nikki: The Rockford Peaches are one of the main teams that's chronicled in that movie, A League of Their Own.

Nikki: She is still alive and she is still trying to bring baseball to girls.

Nikki: The camp is part of several major league initiatives to encourage baseball play among girls and sue is trying to restart women's professional baseball.

Nikki: So I'll drop a link about the camp in the show notes the article that I'll drop in is from 2019.

Nikki: It looks like the camps were put on hold largely in 2020 and she could have just stopped working.

Nikki: Like she could have just said, I'm not going to get this off the ground.

Nikki: But no, she continued on.

Nikki: She sent emails, she made phone calls, she tried to establish connections continuing on in that mission to establish a girls baseball league.

Nikki: So I'm also going to drop in the Instagram handle.

Nikki: You can follow along if you want to support it is at American girls baseball.

Nikki: And again, she is a former Rockford Peach.

Nikki: She is, like, 86 years old, I think.

Nikki: Cute as a peach.

Nikki: She's adorable.

Nikki: And she says I read a few different articles about her where she says, we have a lot of girls in this country that want to play baseball.

Nikki: They don't want to play softball.

Nikki: That's a totally different sport.

Nikki: They want baseball.

Nikki: But we've got this sport that is so exclusively male, and we need to open it back up.

Nikki: We proved with the girls baseball league that this is something that has interest.

Nikki: So let's redo it.

Nikki: Let's start it again.

Nikki: So there are a few different little camps here and there.

Nikki: There are different leagues around the so where is she?

Nikki: She's in Florida.

Nikki: I think it's a good age to be in Florida.

Salina: Stay where it's warm.

Salina: I mean, well, it's pretty warm right here in Georgia right now.

Nikki: Plenty hot here.

Salina: That's cute, too, because Rockford peaches.

Salina: Peaches.

Salina: Georgia.

Salina: Oh, there you go.

Nikki: Cute little tie ins something there.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: So I wanted to give you that.

Nikki: And with that, I'm going to do some rapid firefacts.

Nikki: Okay.

Salina: Okay.

Nikki: The Braves is the only existing major league franchise to have played every season since professional baseball came into existence.

Salina: Oh, okay.

Nikki: The Braves and the Chicago Cubs are the National League's two remaining charter franchises.

Nikki: In the 1930s, baseball legend Babe Ruth played for the Boston Braves.

Nikki: It was a very unmemorable this is.

Salina: Why you shot me the shut up glancer.

Salina: Yeah.

Nikki: But you probably had more to add.

Nikki: I don't really have that much to add, except he did play for the Braves for a minute.

Nikki: It was not great, and he didn't last very long.

Nikki: They've won three World Series titles 1914, 1957, and 1995, and 17 National League pennants.

Nikki: The Braves are the only MLB franchise to have won the World Series in three different home cities.

Nikki: The team has also played its home games in three stadiums in Atlanta.

Nikki: We've talked about this a couple of times.

Nikki: Atlanta, Fulton County from 1966 to 1996, turner Field, 1997 to 2016.

Nikki: And then since 2017, their home stadium has been Truest Park, formerly SunTrust Park, which is like 10 miles outside of Atlanta, which is like, a huge ordeal for some people.

Salina: Tis yes.

Nikki: And I'm going to end on a Schooper Jones note because he's my favorite, and I'm doing it so I can.

Nikki: He was the Braves number one draft pick in 1990 and played with them continuously until he retired in 2012.

Nikki: The Braves retired his number ten jersey, also my volleyball number, and inducted him into the team's hall of Fame.

Nikki: He was inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 2018.

Nikki: So that's it.

Nikki: That's the Braves America's team.

Nikki: The Bravos.

Salina: Whoop.

Salina: Whoop.

Nikki: So if I missed anything, let me know.

Nikki: But that is this week's extra sugar.


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